Axis rail line in Libya

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stg 44
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Axis rail line in Libya

#1

Post by stg 44 » 12 Feb 2016, 20:46

I'm reading van Creveld's 'supplying war' and he mentions the only real solution to the supply issue was building a rail line to link Tripoli and Benghazi and probably Tobruk too. How possible was that if they made the effort? Historically they spent nearly all of their rail related production on the war in the East and repairs in Europe, but if they prioritized North Africa what were the options? Creveld mentions that the Axis negotiated with the Vichy French to ship in 20k tons to Bizerte in Tunisia, but that that was never taken advantage of and anyway there was a gap in the rail lines within Tunisia which would have required a truck convoy to bridge. What if they started using that 20k ton allowance to ship in rail equipment and bridging that gap and using then the French parts to ship in the supplies to build up a rail line connecting Bizerte to Benghazi without interrupting the supplies coming into Tripoli and Benghazi to support combat operation? Would that have been a viable option? How long would it have taken to build an Axis rail line in Libya?

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Re: Axis rail line in Libya

#2

Post by jwsleser » 12 Feb 2016, 23:32

Good day

There is a thread North African Railroads in the sticky section in this folder. That is a good place to start reading.

If the thread doesn't answer your question, ask again.

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Re: Axis rail line in Libya

#3

Post by pugsville » 13 Feb 2016, 15:38

Significant rule construction would have eaten significant into Axis supplies into North Africa and taken at least a year for anything really serious. IT' star dot find a time when they had the slack.

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Re: Axis rail line in Libya

#4

Post by stg 44 » 13 Feb 2016, 16:38

pugsville wrote:Significant rule construction would have eaten significant into Axis supplies into North Africa and taken at least a year for anything really serious. IT' star dot find a time when they had the slack.
That's why I specifically said they'd start with using the historically unused, but allowed for 20k tons of port capacity allotted to the Axis by Vichy France in Tunisia; they'd be able to ship equipment and whatever else needed into Tunisia, link up the rail line to Tripoli and then extend the rail line from Tripoli to Benghazi, just using the Tunisian ports for bringing in rail gear so as to leave the Libyan ports free for war supplies. That doesn't use up then ANY of the historical port capacity used by the Axis armies in Africa.

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Re: Axis rail line in Libya

#5

Post by pugsville » 14 Feb 2016, 16:06

Thats another 760 km of railway line. It also committing to constructing the railway in the slowest way (from one end forward to the other end rather than at multiple places at once) also building the totally useless section first. Still not going to be available any time soon.

Tunis -> Tripoli 760km
Tripoli -> Benghazi - 1024
Benghazi - Tobruk 461

around 2145 km or 1332 miles. A good effort would be 2 miles a day in laying track. 666 days. 2 years.
*guestimation stuff anyone feel free to correct rough figures,

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Re: Axis rail line in Libya

#6

Post by stg 44 » 14 Feb 2016, 17:31

pugsville wrote:Thats another 760 km of railway line. It also committing to constructing the railway in the slowest way (from one end forward to the other end rather than at multiple places at once) also building the totally useless section first. Still not going to be available any time soon.

Tunis -> Tripoli 760km
Tripoli -> Benghazi - 1024
Benghazi - Tobruk 461

around 2145 km or 1332 miles. A good effort would be 2 miles a day in laying track. 666 days. 2 years.
*guestimation stuff anyone feel free to correct rough figures,
I don't think it is. There was already a rail line from Tunis to Gabes:
Image
Image

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Re: Axis rail line in Libya

#7

Post by stg 44 » 14 Feb 2016, 17:35

Gabes to Tripoli is ~365km, so even getting that done effectively adds about 20k tons per month to Tripoli's capacity because that is what could be railed in from Tunisian ports by treaty between Vichy and the Axis.

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Re: Axis rail line in Libya

#8

Post by Dili » 15 Feb 2016, 09:07

And?
The problem was never get things in Tripoli it was to get things in the front line. All those comments about tonnage limits on Libyan ports never mattered much. The problem is putting stuff in front line, that can only be done by ship, air or truck. And be protected from attack something that Axis never achieved.

I think a railway if very vulnerable to interdiction so it implies that the axis have air cover for their rail convoys with airbases along the rail line. Don't includes rail line sabotage. I can just imagine British submarines dropping sabotage squads along the coast.

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Re: Axis rail line in Libya

#9

Post by stg 44 » 15 Feb 2016, 17:38

Dili wrote:And?
The problem was never get things in Tripoli it was to get things in the front line. All those comments about tonnage limits on Libyan ports never mattered much. The problem is putting stuff in front line, that can only be done by ship, air or truck. And be protected from attack something that Axis never achieved.
Or rail. Getting access to other ports and then making the moving of supplies to the front more efficient and less resource costly way is what is the answer to the problems the Axis head in North Africa. It was the solution the British had to supply in the desert, they built a rail road from Egypt into Libya and through that were able to win the logistics issue. Historically the Axis had the problem of needing all rail for domestic/Eastern front use and North Africa didn't even have priority for anything but left overs. I'm wondering if it were possible if it were made a resource priority in terms of rail to actually do what the British did with French ports/rail capacity being used.
Dili wrote: I think a railway if very vulnerable to interdiction so it implies that the axis have air cover for their rail convoys with airbases along the rail line. Don't includes rail line sabotage. I can just imagine British submarines dropping sabotage squads along the coast.
With better supply they have better ability to supply air units along its path to protect it; logistics were a major problem for the Axis in North Africa, so solving that problem means they are better able to sustain air units to defend those logistic systems.

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Re: Axis rail line in Libya

#10

Post by pugsville » 15 Feb 2016, 18:12

Whats the details of the 20,000 ton a month deal who negotiated it? Metropolitan Vichy France? How did the Tunisia administration via it? What was the quid pro motivation of the Vichy french? How much of the overall port capacity did it represent? Who was proposing the wharf labour? Such an agreement might never ever approach 10,000 tons/,month in reality (Even with good will and a true effort of the behalf of the French the port might not be as efficient as that)

Laying railway tracks takes a lot of time, 2 miles a day is a rough figure. Depending how much effort you want to go to. Laying all the tracks from the Tunis(or Gabes) end is the slowest way as you build the least useful sector first. Tripoli=Benghazi is a year or so in track laying in it's own right.

To get large through put you would need to improve the Italian /french lines significantly (lay a better rail bed etc) light, slow narrow gauge railways 9000 tons/month might be a reasonable estimate.

The Existing tracks Tunis/Gabes were a different gauge to existing Italian and British lines as well. So unless you want to have the whole unload everything and reload hassle, one or another segment would have to redone to some degree.

It took the British a long time to say their line, and they had much much greater resources, and their logistics were always better in they had many more trucks (and better trucks for desert conditions)

The LRDP/SAS Raiders would be pretty Ideal for Railway sabotage.

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Re: Axis rail line in Libya

#11

Post by GregSingh » 16 Feb 2016, 02:29

Everything would have to be shipped from Europe: steel and timber for rail tracks; coal or diesel for running locomotives, water was also not abundant!

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Re: Axis rail line in Libya

#12

Post by Freebird » 16 Feb 2016, 02:43

pugsville wrote:
around 2145 km or 1332 miles. A good effort would be 2 miles a day in laying track. 666 days. 2 years.
*guestimation stuff anyone feel free to correct rough figures,
5 or 6 miles from railhead might be a more reasonable figure.
Although it would consume resources and take time, it's really the best option for the Axis to capture Egypt and beyond

Dili wrote:And?
The problem was never get things in Tripoli it was to get things in the front line. All those comments about tonnage limits on Libyan ports never mattered much. .
Sure did, as it hampered efforts to bring in supplies, including trucks & fuel.
pugsville wrote:
To get large through put you would need to improve the Italian /french lines significantly (lay a better rail bed etc) light, slow narrow gauge railways 9000 tons/month might be a reasonable estimate.

The Existing tracks Tunis/Gabes were a different gauge to existing Italian and British lines as well. So unless you want to have the whole unload everything and reload hassle, one or another segment would have to redone to some degree.
.
"Triple rail" might be one way to go, convert the line from Tunis to Gages to standard, with an additional rail placed to still permit the use of the smaller meter gauge rolling stock.
Since the French already had a standard gauge line operating in the north, there was already some standard engines & stock.

The existing rail would suffice for the initial period, which would involve bring supplies & equip to build the rail lines forward

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Re: Axis rail line in Libya

#13

Post by pugsville » 16 Feb 2016, 03:27

2 miles a day might be pushing it. I'm basing it on the 4 mile best ever day record the NZ boast about for the British construction. I the best ever the British did is 4 miles, the Germans averaging 2 is most likely a high estimate.

http://nzetc.victoria.ac.nz/tm/scholarl ... gr-c9.html

French rolling stock, well they may or may not be forth coming. But as with the port total co-opertaions , seamless operation and use of all available resources is less than likely.

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Re: Axis rail line in Libya

#14

Post by Urmel » 16 Feb 2016, 13:04

Freebird wrote:
Dili wrote:And?
The problem was never get things in Tripoli it was to get things in the front line. All those comments about tonnage limits on Libyan ports never mattered much. .
Sure did, as it hampered efforts to bring in supplies, including trucks & fuel.
I am quite unconvinced by van Creveld's analysis of the Libyan port situation. I agree with Dili that there wasn't a meaningful limit on the port tonnage. The issue was the location of the ports in relation to the frontline, and to a lesser extent the need for smaller vessels for Benghazi.

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Re: Axis rail line in Libya

#15

Post by Dili » 16 Feb 2016, 14:44

Freebird wrote:
pugsville wrote:
Dili wrote:And?

Sure did, as it hampered efforts to bring in supplies, including trucks & fuel.
When ships were hold in Italy because the Libyan ports were full and could not handle them?

I know of none.
I think i remember 2 or 3 instance were ships had to wait before being unloaded but that are small situations in 2-3 years of war. A rare occurrence doesn't translate to a pervasive occurrence.

The issue is that the distance to front line is huge in a desert terrain that gives nothing back.

If the Axis wants to advance to Egypt has at least to control Tobruk by Sea and Air and this they never conclusively achieved. Except of some MAS Regia Marina had no permanent force there after Compass. Otherwise it is trucks and fuel to move them.

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