Rommel's Großtransportraum in 1941 and 1942

[ljadw]

If 1000 trucks arrived ,only a part (unknown part ) would be available for the GTR:the harbours would need more trucks, the LW would need more trucks ,a lot of trucks would not be operational and the rest would be divided among fighting and supply forces : a truck transporting troops during an advance /retreat is not the same as a truck transporting supplies from Tripoli to the front .
And even if whe had this number of trucks, it would be meaningless,because more trucks means more drivers,technicians, spare parts, POL,....

And, more trucks does not mean that more supplies could be transported, unless there would be more supplies available ,which means that more supplies should be sent ,thus less trucks,...Askew gives for june 1941 3483 unit trucks and 2116 light transport for the AK, a figure that is plausible ,but the appellation "unit trucks " does not give an indication about the units : fighting units or supply units of the divisions ?

OTOH, at the end of the list ,he gives a figure of 13920 Rear Area SDE trucks and 1583 Rear area SDE Lt Trpts ,but this does not indicate how many of them were available for the GTR.

The grand total would be 21100 motor vehicles ,but the number available for the GRT is unknown and will remain unknown .

[stg 44]

You can in fact arrive at the exact number of trucks sent by the Germans by going through the loading lists.

Do you have those?

[MarkN]

The grand total would be 21100 motor vehicles ,but the number available for the GRT is unknown and will remain unknown .

The gliederung for Pz.Gruppe Afrika and the DAK I posted on page 1 will not tell you how many trucks/vehicles were available on a given day. However, they tell you the establishment of the transport services available to Rommel. Using the KStNs which can be found on multiple websites, anybody can now calculate the number of trucks that the transport services were established for.

Jentz's info in TCiNA (also copied onto the internet) tells you which units were in Africa by the end of June 1941.
The gliederung I posted tells you which units were in Africa by the end of September.

[MarkN]

You can in fact arrive at the exact number of trucks sent by the Germans by going through the loading lists.

Do you have those?

He does.

[Urmel]

Also important to note that AFAICT the Tunisian purchases were not allocated to GTR, but served in harbour transport roles, due to lack of spares and lack of reliability.

[stg 44]

Also important to note that AFAICT the Tunisian purchases were not allocated to GTR, but served in harbour transport roles, due to lack of spares and lack of reliability.

So, any idea how many trucks the Germans shipped in?

[MarkN]

Also important to note that AFAICT the Tunisian purchases were not allocated to GTR, but served in harbour transport roles, due to lack of spares and lack of reliability.

So, any idea how many trucks the Germans shipped in?

Have you done the sums as to how many trucks the establishment of Rommel's 'Großtransportraum' required?

[stg 44]

Also important to note that AFAICT the Tunisian purchases were not allocated to GTR, but served in harbour transport roles, due to lack of spares and lack of reliability.

So, any idea how many trucks the Germans shipped in?

Have you done the sums as to how many trucks the establishment of Rommel's 'Großtransportraum' required?

As Urmel said that is meaningless because it doesn't say what was actually shipped in from Germany and what was actually on hand, just what a sheet of paper says theoretically maybe was available. If you wouldn't mind could you pipe down and let Urmel answer the questions I posed to him, rather than non-answering for him?

[Richard Anderson]

As Urmel said that is meaningless because it doesn't say what was actually shipped in from Germany and what was actually on hand, just what a sheet of paper says theoretically maybe was available.

Really? I don't think Urmel said anything of the sort. :roll:

[stg 44]

As Urmel said that is meaningless because it doesn't say what was actually shipped in from Germany and what was actually on hand, just what a sheet of paper says theoretically maybe was available.

Really? I don't think Urmel said anything of the sort. :roll:

You can in fact arrive at the exact number of trucks sent by the Germans by going through the loading lists.

No, but i) the number of trucks arriving is the number of trucks not going to Russia, and ii) for many trucks you actually get the unit they are going to in the loading lists.

[MarkN]

Also important to note that AFAICT the Tunisian purchases were not allocated to GTR, but served in harbour transport roles, due to lack of spares and lack of reliability.

So, any idea how many trucks the Germans shipped in?

Have you done the sums as to how many trucks the establishment of Rommel's 'Großtransportraum' required?

As Urmel said that is meaningless because it doesn't say what was actually shipped in from Germany and what was actually on hand, just what a sheet of paper says theoretically maybe was available. If you wouldn't mind could you pipe down and let Urmel answer the questions I posed to him, rather than non-answering for him?

Your original post seemed to be a request for information to help you learn more about and understand better Rommel's transport services.

This latest post indicates you have not got a clue and have no interest in understanding anything about the subject. That would explain why you have previously posted factual falsehoods, misdirection and nonsense. It also demonstrates you twist others' words to mean whatever you want them to mean.

The gliederung (in conjuction with KStNs found elsewhere) provide the reader with most of the tools necessary to understand what Rommel had to hand in respect of transport services. You can calculate the number of trucks, the uplift capacity and much more. More than enough to know whether what was sent to him would have made an impact if used elsewhere. It does not tell you how many trucks were available on a given day due to break downs and losses. Nor will it tell you how many trucks it had 'borrowed' from other units. NOTHING will tell you that - not even shipping lists.

It seems you are merely on a 'confirmation bias mission'. In other words, you just want somebody to give you numbers that support your point so you can win the argument elsewhere. Good luck. You won't find the numbers you want in the shipping lists either.

I hope for Urmel's sake he doesn't spend hours combing through all the paperwork just for you to trot off disappointed that he hasn't been able to rewrite history to say what you want it to say.

[stg 44]

Your original post seemed to be a request for information to help you learn more about and understand better Rommel's transport services.
.

Yes and I appreciate your relevant contributions.

This latest post indicates you have not got a clue and have no interest in understanding anything about the subject. That would explain why you have previously posted factual falsehoods, misdirection and nonsense. It also demonstrates you twist others' words to mean whatever you want them to mean. .

Just because I'm asking you to allow Urmel to answer the questions I specifically asked him himself based on the posts he already has made in this thread doesn't mean I don't have an interest in understanding the topic, it means I am requesting a specific piece of information from him if he has it available and is willing to share. Your original post with the organization chart, while interesting and somewhat helpful, did not have the full information I am looking for and frankly is somewhat illegible and without supporting information about what the various subunits entail is not giving me specific numbers. Any disagreements we've had about subjects other than the information requested in the OP have been tangents that you claim you don't want to get in, but then persist with, acting quite rude and condescending throughout, framing issues in the way you want and refusing to accept any other point of view on any topic. For example right here with these statements. I came here looking for specific information about about a specific element of Rommel's supply lines and you've repeatedly tried to derail the thread to talk about other subjects and accuse me of being a liar and derailer of the thread, projecting on to me your own behavior.

The gliederung (in conjuction with KStNs found elsewhere) provide the reader with most of the tools necessary to understand what Rommel had to hand in respect of transport services. You can calculate the number of trucks, the uplift capacity and much more. More than enough to know whether what was sent to him would have made an impact if used elsewhere. It does not tell you how many trucks were available on a given day due to break downs and losses. Nor will it tell you how many trucks it had 'borrowed' from other units. NOTHING will tell you that - not even shipping lists..

Unfortunately without knowing what the various subunits within the chart mean, it is really not helpful for me in the pursuit of the information I've requested. And all those charts show a theoretical organization, not necessarily what actually existed on the ground.
http://www.wwiidaybyday.com/kstn/kstninfo.htm
As the war demonstrated repeatedly, especially as it progressed, what was the theoretical TOE wasn't what existed on the ground, including with the DAK that often used a hodge-podge of captured equipment and improvised weapons.
What Urmel rightly states is that shipping lists will say what was actually sent to North Africa, which is the most helpful for my purposes, because it shows exactly what was then not available for other fronts. And yes you're right, even shipping lists won't say what Rommel actually had on hand at any one point, nothing probably would except specific reports about strength on hand, but that is a snap shot, so you'd need multiple reports from several periods to get an idea of what was usual.

It seems you are merely on a 'confirmation bias mission'. In other words, you just want somebody to give you numbers that support your point so you can win the argument elsewhere. Good luck. You won't find the numbers you want in the shipping lists either. .

I'm looking for hard numbers to understand what was sent, that is all; if you want to imagine my motives I can't stop you, but you really seem to have from the very first post in this thread been judgemental of the request for information; I appreciate your contributions, but if you don't like me or my question you're free not to participate.

I hope for Urmel's sake he doesn't spend hours combing through all the paperwork just for you to trot off disappointed that he hasn't been able to rewrite history to say what you want it to say.

Again you're free not to participate if you don't like me, my request, or whatever you believe to be my motives for asking the questions I have. If Urmel is willing to provide the information I requested, it will be appreciated and if not I understand; it is a lot of work to engage in for someone else's interest. Whatever the numbers are, they are, I'm just interested in knowing what they are; I have no idea what the actual number would be and if it turns out to be insignificant then that is simply what it is and I can modify any assumptions I have based on that new information.

[ljadw]

Even the list of what was sent ,will not help.Neither will the list of what arrived .

It is still unclear what one is discussing : the GRT (number of operational trucks available to supply the DAK), number of supplies that were waiting to be transported, or number of supplies that were needed by the front units/supply units .

Number of operational trucks is more than the number of trucks that arrives : it implies spare parts,POL, drivers, technicians ,....

[stg 44]

Even the list of what was sent ,will not help.Neither will the list of what arrived .

It is still unclear what one is discussing : the GRT (number of operational trucks available to supply the DAK), number of supplies that were waiting to be transported, or number of supplies that were needed by the front units/supply units .

Number of operational trucks is more than the number of trucks that arrives : it implies spare parts,POL, drivers, technicians ,....

Quite right. Still it would be interesting to know what was sent.

[ljadw]

What I have seen is the tonnage of vehicles and spares for Italians and Germans that arrived in 1941:128,731,but that helps us not farther .

Source =Ultra intelligence and Rommel's convoys (Christos military and intelligence corner ) .