German tank deliveries to North Africa

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LColombo
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Re: German tank deliveries to North Africa

Post by LColombo » 17 Mar 2018 01:50

This one was photographed allegedly by soldier from Fla-Btl. 606, suggesting it's a 30 March convoy (possible options: Samos, Heraclea, Ruhr or Italian ship Galilea). What a beautiful camouflage!
Note: the Galilea engaged in the Afrika Korps voyages was not an Italian ship. The Italian Galilea, a passenger steamer of 8,052 GRT, never made a single voyage to North Africa; she was always used as a troopship between Italy and Greece/Albania until her sinking by HMS Proteus on 28/3/1942, with the loss of over 1,000 men.

The Galilea used to carry AK supplies was instead a German ship, a much smaller freighter of 1,927 GRT built in 1922. She was torpedoed and damaged by HMS Upright on 31/3/1941 while sailing from Tripoli to Italy, beached near Tripoli to prevent sinking, never repaired and, I believe, scuttled in 1943 at the fall of Tripoli.

They often get mixed up.

See here: http://www.plimsollshipdata.org/ship.ph ... me=Galilea (German Galilea)
http://www.plimsollshipdata.org/ship.ph ... me=Galilea (Italian Galilea)

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Leo Niehorster
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Re: German tank deliveries to North Africa

Post by Leo Niehorster » 17 Mar 2018 09:50

Thank you Brevity. Excellent posts. :thumbsup:

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Re: German tank deliveries to North Africa

Post by Rnox » 17 Mar 2018 12:31

Hi,

ALICANTE

Image

+++++

WACHTFELS ??

Image

Image

Rnox. :wink:

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David W
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Re: German tank deliveries to North Africa

Post by David W » 17 Mar 2018 12:59

I love the dazzle camouflage, very WWI.

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Re: German tank deliveries to North Africa

Post by Dili » 17 Mar 2018 18:11

Leo Niehorster wrote:Thank you Brevity. Excellent posts. :thumbsup:

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Agreed. Fantastic.

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Re: German tank deliveries to North Africa

Post by Dili » 17 Mar 2018 18:24

Some more:
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

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Re: German tank deliveries to North Africa

Post by Urmel » 18 Mar 2018 04:09

Thanks a lot for this Brevity. Are these pictures in your possession?

Some random notes.

Duisburg didn't make it for 'long'. She was the lead of the second convoy to be destroyed completely by surface forces, the night of 9/10 November. Just a few months longer than her sister.

I doubt it was up to the captain of a ship to decide the fixed defenses. AA gunners were organised and allocated through a dedicated unit, Marinebordflakkompanie Sued. As you can see here, Ankara was well defended, and she was a highly valuable ship. Fast, with strong cranes able to undertake loading/unloading of tanks, and at almost 5,000 tons one of the larger dedicated freighters running the North Africa route for the Axis. https://rommelsriposte.com/2012/06/28/g ... -nov-1941/ She may also have been built with the role of HSK in mind, hence it might have been easier to fit gun platforms. Ankara was a sister to German HSK Stier, which used Ankara's name for a short time. So a nice drawing here:

http://forum-marinearchiv.de/coppermine ... reuzer.pdf

I wouldn't go and draw conclusions on total load from deck cargo. This was mostly vehicles I would guess, and they have a low weight/cube ratio for their footprint. Not tanks of course, but the hundreds of trucks and cars. It is still quite possible that the ships were quite empty in the main cargo spaces. I have never seen a conclusive explanation as to why they went partially empty.

These are some superb posts from you, and really add a lot of colour (or B/W) to the story. Many thanks!
The enemy had superiority in numbers, his tanks were more heavily armoured, they had larger calibre guns with nearly twice the effective range of ours, and their telescopes were superior. 5 RTR 19/11/41

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Re: German tank deliveries to North Africa

Post by Urmel » 18 Mar 2018 05:59

Further comments:

It's not quite correct that most of the German merchants were lost in 1941. They lost a lot of them, but on balance may have been half or less. I need to dig through my files, I have a list somewhere.

Reichenfels again was the sister to a HSK, in this case Atlantis (Schiff 16), originally Goldenfels. So if you can find drawings of her on the internet, minus the second funnel, that should be quite close I guess.
The enemy had superiority in numbers, his tanks were more heavily armoured, they had larger calibre guns with nearly twice the effective range of ours, and their telescopes were superior. 5 RTR 19/11/41

The CRUSADER Project - The Winter Battle 1941/42

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Re: German tank deliveries to North Africa

Post by Rnox » 18 Mar 2018 10:42

"Thanks a lot for this Brevity. Are these pictures in your possession ?"...

No, sorry... :?

Rnox.

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Re: German tank deliveries to North Africa

Post by Peter K. » 18 Mar 2018 21:25

In my opinion this should be RUHR ...
Image
I would identify this ship as PREUSSEN ...
Image

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Re: German tank deliveries to North Africa

Post by Dili » 21 Mar 2018 19:13

I agree with the Ruhr with one exception, i don't think small bottom left picture is the same ship.

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Re: German tank deliveries to North Africa

Post by Urmel » 07 Apr 2018 15:41

Updated to the end of March 1942.

https://rommelsriposte.com/2018/03/04/g ... 5-lei-div/

The number of tanks sent until then is impressive. About four Panzerdivisionen worth of tanks.
The enemy had superiority in numbers, his tanks were more heavily armoured, they had larger calibre guns with nearly twice the effective range of ours, and their telescopes were superior. 5 RTR 19/11/41

The CRUSADER Project - The Winter Battle 1941/42

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Don Juan
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Re: German tank deliveries to North Africa

Post by Don Juan » 15 Apr 2018 11:57

Urmel wrote:The number of tanks sent until then is impressive. About four Panzerdivisionen worth of tanks.
How much larger is this than the number previously considered?
"The demonstration, as a demonstration, was a failure. The sunshield would not fit the tank. Altogether it was rather typically Middle Easty."
- 7th Armoured Brigade War Diary, 30th August 1941

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Re: German tank deliveries to North Africa

Post by Urmel » 15 Apr 2018 12:31

Don Juan wrote:
Urmel wrote:The number of tanks sent until then is impressive. About four Panzerdivisionen worth of tanks.
How much larger is this than the number previously considered?
I have no idea if there is any difference. I had just never seen a total number.
The enemy had superiority in numbers, his tanks were more heavily armoured, they had larger calibre guns with nearly twice the effective range of ours, and their telescopes were superior. 5 RTR 19/11/41

The CRUSADER Project - The Winter Battle 1941/42

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Re: German tank deliveries to North Africa

Post by MarkN » 15 Apr 2018 13:18

Urmel wrote: The number of tanks sent until then is impressive. About four Panzerdivisionen worth of tanks.
Sounds about right. By January 1942, DAK had 'lost' the equivalent of 2 division's worth of pantsers which needed to be replaced.

But also remember the 'establishment' of tanks required in Libya was a moving target. Pz.Regt.5 initially had a different look to Pz.Regt.8 with an abundance of Pz.I - and then another 25 showed up later. In December 1941, both were authorized to 8 Kp format from 6. In the same timeframe, both stab DAK and stab Pz.Armee were established with a pantser 'protection' force and engineer and ersatz units also had their allocations too. And then 90.lei-Div was established with a Pz.Abt (although it didn't show up in time).

In comparison, how many pantsers had the British 'burned through' during the same time frame?

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