German tank deliveries to North Africa

Discussions on WW2 in Africa & the Mediterranean. Hosted by Andy H
User avatar
David W
Member
Posts: 3516
Joined: 28 Mar 2004 01:30
Location: Devon, England

Re: German tank deliveries to North Africa

Post by David W » 21 Apr 2023 20:31

I assume that you are referring to IX Btg Carri M. (not Carri L) If so, the date I have is 25/08/41.

FredT
Member
Posts: 31
Joined: 24 Nov 2022 21:12
Location: USA

Re: German tank deliveries to North Africa

Post by FredT » 21 Apr 2023 22:26

That's the one, thanks!

FredT
Member
Posts: 31
Joined: 24 Nov 2022 21:12
Location: USA

Re: German tank deliveries to North Africa

Post by FredT » 22 Apr 2023 06:13

OK, here's the critique of the appendix that I'll put in my Amazon review. I'm ignoring the pre-Rommel part of the campaign because I've never seriously researched that. I'm finding errors in the text too, so it'll be some time before my review goes online.

Appendix 1: Major Tank Deliveries to North Africa, 1940-41
5th Light Division had 45 Pz II (not 43) and 17 Pz IV (not 18).
The 10 Pz III and 3 Pz IV replacements for the tanks lost in the Leverkusen fire are missing.
15th Panzer Division had 20 Pz IV, not 18.
German summer 1941 replacements were 29 Pz III, not 15 Pz III plus 5 Pz IV.
IX Btg Carri M arrived 25 August 1941, not in October.
RECAM’s 9 M13/40 and 4 L6/40 are missing. Sadkovich’s book has 7 M13/40 arriving in July and the other 6 tanks in September.
The 45 German tanks and 52 Italian tanks sunk by Upright are missing.
Empire Song sank with 45 Matildas, not 50.
Convoy W.S. 8b had 14 Matildas and 12 cruisers, not vice versa.
Convoy W.S. 11 had 24 Crusaders, 2 Mk II, and 4 Mk IV (not 20 Crusaders).

User avatar
Urmel
Member
Posts: 4918
Joined: 25 Aug 2008 09:34
Location: The late JBond

Re: German tank deliveries to North Africa

Post by Urmel » 22 Apr 2023 21:59

Did he at least pick up the 24 M13 that arrived in November and December on Filzi and Veniero?

https://rommelsriposte.com/2009/02/15/s ... mber-1941/
The enemy had superiority in numbers, his tanks were more heavily armoured, they had larger calibre guns with nearly twice the effective range of ours, and their telescopes were superior. 5 RTR 19/11/41

The CRUSADER Project - The Winter Battle 1941/42

FredT
Member
Posts: 31
Joined: 24 Nov 2022 21:12
Location: USA

Re: German tank deliveries to North Africa

Post by FredT » 22 Apr 2023 22:13

Yes, he got the dates of those 24 tanks correct.

User avatar
Urmel
Member
Posts: 4918
Joined: 25 Aug 2008 09:34
Location: The late JBond

Discussion of Robert Forczyk 'Desert Armour'

Post by Urmel » 25 Apr 2023 08:39

Hi

I suggest you ask that question as a new discussion, as others may have the answer, e.g. Richard Anderson. I would need to look for it.
The enemy had superiority in numbers, his tanks were more heavily armoured, they had larger calibre guns with nearly twice the effective range of ours, and their telescopes were superior. 5 RTR 19/11/41

The CRUSADER Project - The Winter Battle 1941/42

gehrig38
Member
Posts: 8
Joined: 09 Jun 2023 07:45
Location: Fairview, Tennessee

Re: German tank deliveries to North Africa

Post by gehrig38 » 30 Aug 2023 07:52

Ok, first off, you guys are f'ing amazing. The data here is quite literally EXACTLY what I was looking for. I am creating 2 games for our company (Multi-Man Publishing), one for ASL, a HASL entitled "The Fox and the Rats" on North Africa, and a solitaire CG of North Africa.
For the Solitaire game, I am dead set on making supply, logistics, and TO&E as integrated into the system as possible, and it was a massive aspect of the NA campaign.
What I am wondering is this. Is there a resource, is this thread it? Is it possible to locate all the Allied and axis convoys sent to N.A. from Germany, Italy, and the UK?
In my dream world, I have ALL the convoys, their contents, which made it and which sank. I'd love to add this aspect to the game in the way of a 'side game' that has a major impact on DAK and the WDF.
Again, thanks for anything!
I have Mr Forczyks book as well as Mr Jentz, waiting on Mr. Forczyk's October release for the 2nd half of the war.

User avatar
Urmel
Member
Posts: 4918
Joined: 25 Aug 2008 09:34
Location: The late JBond

Re: German tank deliveries to North Africa

Post by Urmel » 30 Aug 2023 07:59

I'm not aware of a complete listing at that level of detail.
The enemy had superiority in numbers, his tanks were more heavily armoured, they had larger calibre guns with nearly twice the effective range of ours, and their telescopes were superior. 5 RTR 19/11/41

The CRUSADER Project - The Winter Battle 1941/42

gehrig38
Member
Posts: 8
Joined: 09 Jun 2023 07:45
Location: Fairview, Tennessee

Re: German tank deliveries to North Africa

Post by gehrig38 » 31 Aug 2023 03:26

Hey guys. In doing this work one of the gameplay aspects will be the convoys bringing supplies/fuel/material to NA forces. Am I correct in the following? Allied Convoys went AROUND the Cape up the Suez, in a trip that took months? Or if they needed to expedite they sent a tiger convoy (I read that as a super fast stop for nothing rush) through the med to Tobruk or Alexandria? The Axis went through the med, from Italy? I am trying to create a process in the game where players allocate convoys to bring aid and in the process can lose stuff at sea. WIth the inherent dangers of the different routes factored in.
Also trying to get a feel for the volume of material a ship(s) could carry as it relates to convoy size. Thus larger convoys would obviously carry more but risk more as well.

gehrig38
Member
Posts: 8
Joined: 09 Jun 2023 07:45
Location: Fairview, Tennessee

Re: German tank deliveries to North Africa

Post by gehrig38 » 31 Aug 2023 03:27

One last thing. Timing? How long did it take to get across the med from Italy to a Benghazi or Tripoli? The cape run for the allies was like months correct? Right now the game is broken into two week turns, I think I have stumbled upon a very cool combat process that will be fun as hell for players.

User avatar
Urmel
Member
Posts: 4918
Joined: 25 Aug 2008 09:34
Location: The late JBond

Re: German tank deliveries to North Africa

Post by Urmel » 31 Aug 2023 04:14

You can find some convoy information on our site for the Axis convoys.

https://rommelsriposte.com/2013/07/10/i ... th-africa/

https://rommelsriposte.com/2020/04/22/s ... mber-1941/

Axis convoys operated from both Italy (Naples, Brindisi, Taranto) and Greece.

For the UK I recommend Convoyweb or whatever it is called. You want the W.S. convoys (Winston Specials).
The enemy had superiority in numbers, his tanks were more heavily armoured, they had larger calibre guns with nearly twice the effective range of ours, and their telescopes were superior. 5 RTR 19/11/41

The CRUSADER Project - The Winter Battle 1941/42

User avatar
David W
Member
Posts: 3516
Joined: 28 Mar 2004 01:30
Location: Devon, England

Re: German tank deliveries to North Africa

Post by David W » 31 Aug 2023 07:21

Be aware that Conveyweb only gives dates, not details of contents of the convoys.

User avatar
Urmel
Member
Posts: 4918
Joined: 25 Aug 2008 09:34
Location: The late JBond

Re: German tank deliveries to North Africa

Post by Urmel » 31 Aug 2023 10:08

I don't think anyone has. Even the 'Winston Specials' book doesn't have that.
The enemy had superiority in numbers, his tanks were more heavily armoured, they had larger calibre guns with nearly twice the effective range of ours, and their telescopes were superior. 5 RTR 19/11/41

The CRUSADER Project - The Winter Battle 1941/42

User avatar
David W
Member
Posts: 3516
Joined: 28 Mar 2004 01:30
Location: Devon, England

Re: German tank deliveries to North Africa

Post by David W » 31 Aug 2023 12:47

Thanks for letting me know! In was going to buy it just for that.

gehrig38
Member
Posts: 8
Joined: 09 Jun 2023 07:45
Location: Fairview, Tennessee

Re: German tank deliveries to North Africa

Post by gehrig38 » 31 Aug 2023 17:25

You guys have any idea how much time it took for them to transit to the African ports? From the UK through the Med (fast convoy right?) thru the Suez, and how long for the Axis convoys from port to port.

Return to “WW2 in Africa & the Mediterranean”