Division "Hermann Göring" at Salerno

[Richard Anderson]

The snip of the Werfer Battery was from the same source that you refer to above. Do you have another source that supports your statement about the lack of HG werfer at Salerno?

I suspect the source for the attachment was probably a LXXVI PzK document, but have no way to check now.

Edit to add: looking at the Oct Gliederung the Werfer Bty (No. 13) was still there, although the number of 15 cm weapons looks to be reduced to just 7.

I suspect my IIRC regarding its formation in October was incorrect if the Gliederung used indicates it was around in September.

[Tom from Cornwall]

Hi Rich,

No problem. Without your input I would be still wallowing around completely lost in the German documents.

Incidentally, I've found further references to more Werfers being placed under H.G. Division command - two btys from Werfer Regt 71 apparently being placed under command from 0700 on 12 September and then references to the use of Werfer fire to help halt a British attack that afternoon north of Salerno.

Regards

Tom

[Richard Anderson]

Incidentally, I've found further references to more Werfers being placed under H.G. Division command - two btys from Werfer Regt 71 apparently being placed under command from 0700 on 12 September and then references to the use of Werfer fire to help halt a British attack that afternoon north of Salerno.

That would probably be the source for my remark that the Werfer with the division at Salerno were attached from Werf.-Regt. 71. However, was that "batteries" in the German sense of a six Werfer Batterie or "batteries" in the British sense...the next subdivision in a Regiment, which for the Germans would be "Abteilungen" each typically of three "Batterien"?

[Tom from Cornwall]

was that "batteries" in the German sense of a six Werfer Batterie or "batteries" in the British sense...the next subdivision in a Regiment, which for the Germans would be "Abteilungen" each typically of three "Batterien"?

Hi Rich,

The British Official Historians' Enemy Documents Section state this:

[At 0700 hours 12 September] II and III Btys Werfer Regt 71, III/Art Regt 33 and 6. and 7. troops of this Regt (17 guns) were placed under H.G. command for artillery purposes. (1)

using the war diary of "Art Regt H.G." as their source. Its a bit ambiguous isn't it? Judging by the use of roman numerals elsewhere to identify infantry, panzer and artillery battalions, I am beginning to think that they do mean Werfer "Abteilungen" here which suggests that HG Division had a considerable force of these weapons during the latter stages of the Salerno bridgehead battles. I'll keep searching and might have to go back to the original sources, which I think may be held by the Imperial War Museum.

Regards

Tom

[Richard Anderson]

That is ambiguous...who is "this Regt"? Does that refer to Werfer 71. or Artillerie 33. or someone else entirely? II. and III. certainly refer to the second and third Abteilung of Werfer 71. just as III./Art.-Regt. 33. refers to the third Abteilung of that regiment. But 6. Batterie would normally be from the II. Abteilung and 7. from the III. Abteilung...so it seems a bit peculiar.

[Tom from Cornwall]

so it seems a bit peculiar.

And it's not like there isn't enough confusion about just which unit was in which Battle Group either... :roll:

I'm hoping that a later reference to the artillery resources available to HG Division in the CAB document that I'm working through might make it clearer but, failing that, I'll report back when I can get to the original records in the IWM.

Regards

Tom

[Richard Anderson]

I'm hoping that a later reference to the artillery resources available to HG Division in the CAB document that I'm working through might make it clearer but, failing that, I'll report back when I can get to the original records in the IWM.

My suspicion is that it does indeed refer to both II. and III. Abteilung, but probably the Stab and Stabsbatterie of the two Abteilungen being attached to HG, but only with single batteries of each Abteilung (6. and 7.). At this time, the regiment was still rebuilding after losing I. and II. Abteilung in Tunisia in May. Shortly after, the IV. Abteilung was renamed II., but it is unclear when the I. Abteilung was rebuilt, but possibly not until June 1944.

Or it may refer to something else entirely.

[Tom from Cornwall]

Hi Rich,

The same Cabinet Office EDS states that II and III Btys Werfer Regt 71 (3 troops x 15 cm, and 3 troops x 21 cm Werfer respectively), and the 17 cm guns of 15 Pz Gren Division, were still attached to HG Division and supported the attack by Kampfgruppe Schmalz on 14 September 1943.

German terminology would be II and III Btls. with each troop having an establishment of 6 werfers I assume.

That werfers were in use in support of HG Div on 12 September is shown by reference to: "By 1700 hours concentrated fire from all weapons, including the Nebelwerfer, had brought the enemy to a stop..."

Will post more if and when I come across it. This evidence contradicts Niklas Zetterling's remarks in the TNDM newsletter though.

Regards

Tom

[Tom from Cornwall]

Found this image, Italy 1943 and obviously early in campaign:

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Nebe ... rfer".jpg

Regards

Tom