Alam Halfa Scots Greys question.

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sboyd2kus
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Alam Halfa Scots Greys question.

Post by sboyd2kus » 28 Sep 2020 17:41

At the Apex of the 31 August 42 Battle of Alam Halfa, the Scots Greys swept over the crest of Point 102 on Alam Halfa Ridge to plug a hole in the 22nd Armour Brigade line.

The Greys had 2 Grant Squadrons and 1 Honey Squadron.

>>>Did the Honeys charge also, or just the Grant Squadrons?

Unfortunately all the sources I have tend to ignore actions, losses, and involvement of Crusader or Honey Squadrons in this battle; they only mention the Grants.

Thanks!
-Sharon

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ClintHardware
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Re: Alam Halfa Scots Greys question.

Post by ClintHardware » 28 Oct 2020 04:11

Hi Sharon

What sources have you looked at so far? Its been a while since I wrote the battle up quite extensively but I could re-check what I have and rule out what you have looked at.
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Re: Alam Halfa Scots Greys question.

Post by sboyd2kus » 01 Nov 2020 06:44

The 1956 B.H. Lidddel Hart US Army Combat Studies Institute, with the narrative of Maj Gen GPB Roberts - the Commander of the 22nd Ar Bde has the best blow by blow - but he doesn't mention the Honeys, only the Grants.
warlinks .com battle diaries from 3, 4 CLY
http://nzetc.victoria.ac.nz/tm/scholarl ... am-c7.html

A bunch of others, but no one mentions the Honeys.

Thanks, Clint!

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Re: Alam Halfa Scots Greys question.

Post by ClintHardware » 11 Nov 2020 21:06

I apologise for my delay Sharon. I will have a look tomorrow and post an update here.
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ClintHardware
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Re: Alam Halfa Scots Greys question.

Post by ClintHardware » 12 Nov 2020 17:19

Sharon I have sent you a PM
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iswise
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Re: Alam Halfa Scots Greys question.

Post by iswise » 19 May 2021 12:22

I dont know if it is of any interest but my wife has recently published her father's memoirs. He was in B Coy. 1 Bn. The Rifle Brigade as part of an anti tank platoon and was in the front line at Alam Halfa when Pip Roberts and the "Greys" attacked and witnessed the event first hand. The following extract from the book again only mentions Grants:
"...Anyway, it was a marvellous sight to see 30 Grants come roaring down and open fire simultaneously. One of them stopped only a few yards behind our gun pit and the blast deafened us. When we made our presence known the tank commander said 'Good God, I didnt know anyone was still alive down there' ...."
Extract from "My Wartime Wanderings" by Kenneth L Phillips. ISBN978-1-78963-174-6

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ClintHardware
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Re: Alam Halfa Scots Greys question.

Post by ClintHardware » 30 May 2021 15:48

HI Iswise
Bought his book this week and it is a good read with interesting eye witness details. Thank you both for getting it published.
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Re: Alam Halfa Scots Greys question.

Post by iswise » 26 Jul 2021 22:47

ClintHardware wrote:
30 May 2021 15:48
HI Iswise
Bought his book this week and it is a good read with interesting eye witness details. Thank you both for getting it published.
Very pleased to hear you enjoyed it. Hope you had a moment to post a quick rating/review on whatever site you bought the book from ;)
All the best
Ian and Ann

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ClintHardware
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Re: Alam Halfa Scots Greys question.

Post by ClintHardware » 08 Aug 2021 08:59

iswise wrote:
26 Jul 2021 22:47

Very pleased to hear you enjoyed it. Hope you had a moment to post a quick rating/review on whatever site you bought the book from ;)
All the best
Ian and Ann
I will make sure of that shortly
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Urmel
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Re: Alam Halfa Scots Greys question.

Post by Urmel » 22 Aug 2021 21:13

sboyd2kus wrote:
01 Nov 2020 06:44
The 1956 B.H. Lidddel Hart US Army Combat Studies Institute, with the narrative of Maj Gen GPB Roberts - the Commander of the 22nd Ar Bde has the best blow by blow - but he doesn't mention the Honeys, only the Grants.
warlinks .com battle diaries from 3, 4 CLY
http://nzetc.victoria.ac.nz/tm/scholarl ... am-c7.html

A bunch of others, but no one mentions the Honeys.

Thanks, Clint!
After CRUSADER the Honey was relegated to a light tank role, and I don't think anyone would have looked benevolently on a commander using it for a charge.

https://rommelsriposte.com/2011/10/13/t ... ir-shop-2/
The enemy had superiority in numbers, his tanks were more heavily armoured, they had larger calibre guns with nearly twice the effective range of ours, and their telescopes were superior. 5 RTR 19/11/41

The CRUSADER Project - The Winter Battle 1941/42

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Re: Alam Halfa Scots Greys question.

Post by gehrig38 » 09 Jun 2023 07:50

iswise wrote:
19 May 2021 12:22
I dont know if it is of any interest but my wife has recently published her father's memoirs. He was in B Coy. 1 Bn. The Rifle Brigade as part of an anti tank platoon and was in the front line at Alam Halfa when Pip Roberts and the "Greys" attacked and witnessed the event first hand. The following extract from the book again only mentions Grants:
"...Anyway, it was a marvellous sight to see 30 Grants come roaring down and open fire simultaneously. One of them stopped only a few yards behind our gun pit and the blast deafened us. When we made our presence known the tank commander said 'Good God, I didnt know anyone was still alive down there' ...."
Extract from "My Wartime Wanderings" by Kenneth L Phillips. ISBN978-1-78963-174-6
I know it's been awhile since you posted this but I just went and bought the book. I am in the midst of creating a game for a game system called Advanced Squad leader and my current project is centered on the campaign in NA. One of the feature battles of the product is this specific battle and I already know this book will be a huge help.
My biggest issue is I cannot for the life of me find anything relating to a map or geography of the Ridge and surrounding areas.
So many of the post war maps have the Ridge 20 to 60 miles south southwest of El Alamein and somewhere in between.
I am trying hard to find it on Google Earth Pro but I can't locate it as the point it indicates as Alam El Halfa ridge doesn't appear to be the actual spot.
It's a ridge, not a hillock I assume?
It appears on many early maps to extend SW to NE for a good ways and on some maps it appears below Ruweisat Ridge.
Any help would be GREATLY appreciated.

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Urmel
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Re: Alam Halfa Scots Greys question.

Post by Urmel » 09 Jun 2023 08:50

Not the greatest quality, but should give you the idea.
Screenshot 2023-06-09 at 8.51.41 AM.jpg
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
The enemy had superiority in numbers, his tanks were more heavily armoured, they had larger calibre guns with nearly twice the effective range of ours, and their telescopes were superior. 5 RTR 19/11/41

The CRUSADER Project - The Winter Battle 1941/42

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Re: Alam Halfa Scots Greys question.

Post by jwsleser » 09 Jun 2023 17:02

Try https://maps.lib.utexas.edu/maps/ams/eg ... hammam.jpg

The ridge is in the lower left quadrant and is labelled.

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gehrig38
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Re: Alam Halfa Scots Greys question.

Post by gehrig38 » 09 Jun 2023 21:44

jwsleser wrote:
09 Jun 2023 17:02
Try https://maps.lib.utexas.edu/maps/ams/eg ... hammam.jpg

The ridge is in the lower left quadrant and is labelled.

Pista Jeff
This is outstanding! Thank you. Clearly, very clearly a large hill. Far more substantial than a Hillock

gehrig38
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Re: Alam Halfa Scots Greys question.

Post by gehrig38 » 10 Jun 2023 05:30

I tried to navigate that site and had major issues. The other topo I am after is Beda Fomm and the surrounding area if anyone has any leads.

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