I guess that the division wasn't particularly happy about that. AFAIK they lost their entire Flak-Regiment.
HG Div - "Elite"?
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Re: HG Div - "Elite"?
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Re: HG Div - "Elite"?
I don't know how complete the HG was in early September. The focus on the 16th PZ reflects The US centric view. You have to find Brit centric or German accounts for details on the HG or 15PG Div
Re: HG Div - "Elite"?
I forgot what the TOE page (it was hosted online by a reliable source) but the Panzerkorps H.G. followed a similar organization scheme as the Panzerkorps G.D. It was designed mainly to conserve resources for subordinate formations.Pascal. Kullmann. wrote: ↑12 Aug 2021, 07:26I guess that the division wasn't particularly happy abou that. AFAIK they lost their entire Flak-Regiment.
I haven't read the K-history but the splitting up of the cadre to pollinate several weaker formations was what happened to G.D. However at least G.D. selected people and volunteers from across the army. All of this seems part of the never-ending German military's bureacratic tendency to create new formations despite lacking the means to reinforce them properly.
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Re: HG Div - "Elite"?
Okay, thanks for the insight. 15PGD (Kampfgruppe Stroh) was quite heavily enganged at Hospital Hill. I think that HG (together with III/Fj.Rgt.1) was mainly enganged against commandos and rangers but it could be that they also send some elements west against 46. or 56. Div. Apparently elements of 3. PGD and 26. PzDiv were also enganged against X Corps.Carl Schwamberger wrote: ↑12 Aug 2021, 13:57I don't know how complete the HG was in early September. The focus on the 16th PZ reflects The US centric view. You have to find Brit centric or German accounts for details on the HG or 15PG Div
A quote from the Osprey book concerning the HG Div and the commandos:
,,His men fought with great zeal and were considered tough opponents by the British Commandos who faced them."(Osprey, Salerno 1943, p. 22).
Last edited by Westphalia1812 on 12 Aug 2021, 16:44, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: HG Div - "Elite"?
The other entity that replicated was the division FHH. This was also split into FHH1 and FHH2, and the economizing corps HQ, Panzerkorps FHH which followed a similar organizational form to Panzerkorps G.D. and Panzerkorps H.G.
Re: HG Div - "Elite"?
The term "elite" applied with regard to German units is quite problematic particularly since they do not reinforce their units significantly until a refitting or rebuilding. So their units are only strong in the beginning of their lifecycle. When you read Spaeter G.D you should have noticed that the most elite German army unit spent most of its service understrength, albeit somewhat stronger than the regular units.Pascal. Kullmann. wrote: ↑12 Aug 2021, 16:02A quote from the Osprey book concerning the HG Div and the commandos:
,,His men fought with great zeal and were considered tough opponents by the British Commandos who faced them."(Osprey, Salerno 1943, p. 22).
There is also the tendency of allied historians to throw this adjective around even when the German "elite" unit is just a regimental battlegroup. I think the Germans made too many titled units, and it is confusing even until this day.
On August 20, 1943 division H.G. had 16 Stug, 6 Stuh, 28 Pz III, 31 Pz IV, 3 PzBef.
LAH at the same time (also in Italy) had 4 PzII, 1Pz III, 58 Pz IV, 71 Pz V, 9 PzBef, 28 Pz VI
(Panzertruppen II, Jentz)
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Re: HG Div - "Elite"?
Thats more than I expected. HG suffered heavily during HUSKY.
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Re: HG Div - "Elite"?
On July 10th 1943
HG Division: 20 Stug, 9 Stuh, 46 Pz III, 32 Pz IV, 7 PzBef
HG Division: 20 Stug, 9 Stuh, 46 Pz III, 32 Pz IV, 7 PzBef
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Re: HG Div - "Elite"?
Total losses in Sicily:Pascal. Kullmann. wrote: ↑12 Aug 2021, 17:21
Thats more than I expected. HG suffered heavily during HUSKY.
Page 3 from from https://www.amazon.co.uk/Hermann-Goring ... 0980463130
These losses are listed in Jentz Panzer Truppen II page 107 but It appears the significance was not realised
June 20...............46 III, 32 IV, 7 Befh, 20 Stug, 9 StuH.
Losses.................28 III, 21 IV, 4 Befh, 4 Stug, 3 StuH.
Evacuated ...........18 III, 11 IV, 3 Befh, 16 Stug, 6 StuH. (Deduction)
Aug 20................28 III, 31 IV, 3 Befh, 16 Stug, 6 StuH. (Panzer truppen II pg 136)
the Unit must have received new tanks sometime between leaving Sicily and the August 20 count.
Not also the 16 Tigers lost by HG.
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Re: HG Div - "Elite"?
Apart from the Pz III the losses don't look too dramatic. IF Jentz figures are correct...
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Re: HG Div - "Elite"?
I did not post these for the losses. This division's tank strength was similar to the ones in the Eastern Front of the same time period but less than the "elite" LAH (and other "elite" units) .Pascal. Kullmann. wrote: ↑12 Aug 2021, 18:34
Apart from the Pz III the losses don't look too dramatic. IF Jentz figures are correct...
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Re: HG Div - "Elite"?
Yes I got that. I was just a bit suprised by the numbers.Cult Icon wrote: ↑12 Aug 2021, 18:41I did not post these for the losses. This division's tank strength was similar to the ones in the Eastern Front of the same time period but less than the "elite" LAH.Pascal. Kullmann. wrote: ↑12 Aug 2021, 18:34
Apart from the Pz III the losses don't look too dramatic. IF Jentz figures are correct...
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Re: HG Div - "Elite"?
Is it just me or is the amount of tank reinforcements that HG received quite high for that time? Especially since it was between a pretty small duration of time.Michael Kenny wrote: ↑12 Aug 2021, 18:33Total losses in Sicily:Pascal. Kullmann. wrote: ↑12 Aug 2021, 17:21
Thats more than I expected. HG suffered heavily during HUSKY.
Sicily losses.jpg
Page 3 from from https://www.amazon.co.uk/Hermann-Goring ... 0980463130
These losses are listed in Jentz Panzer Truppen II page 107 but It appears the significance was not realised
June 20...............46 III, 32 IV, 7 Befh, 20 Stug, 9 StuH.
Losses.................28 III, 21 IV, 4 Befh, 4 Stug, 3 StuH.
Evacuated ...........18 III, 11 IV, 3 Befh, 16 Stug, 6 StuH. (Deduction)
Aug 20................28 III, 31 IV, 3 Befh, 16 Stug, 6 StuH. (Panzer truppen II pg 136)
the Unit must have received new tanks sometime between leaving Sicily and the August 20 count.
Not also the 16 Tigers lost by HG.
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Re: HG Div - "Elite"?
1st SS had been moved from Russia to Italy to re-fit and reform. It left all its tanks in Russia and was issued new ones in Italy. The recently formed Panther Abteilung also joined the Unit in Italy. It was in effect a brand-new Division. It was also in the process of losing its Tiger Coy. which had become sSS Pz Abt101 so strictly speaking 1st SS did not have any Tigers on its books until they had to rush the Unit back to Russia in October and they simply 'took over' the Tigers of sSS PzAbt 101.Cult Icon wrote: ↑12 Aug 2021, 17:10
On August 20, 1943 division H.G. had 16 Stug, 6 Stuh, 28 Pz III, 31 Pz IV, 3 PzBef.
LAH at the same time (also in Italy) had 4 PzII, 1Pz III, 58 Pz IV, 71 Pz V, 9 PzBef, 28 Pz VI
......................... This division's tank strength was similar to the ones in the Eastern Front of the same time period but less than the "elite" LAH (and other "elite" units) .
Re: HG Div - "Elite"?
In looking at the Armament of HG Parachute-Panzer division June 1, 1944 (History of Fallschirm Panzerkorps Hermann Goering, Kurkowski):Pascal. Kullmann. wrote: ↑12 Aug 2021, 18:44Yes I got that. I was just a bit suprised by the numbers.
The oustanding feature is the stronger than normal anti-aircraft assets (70 x 20mm, 42 x 20mm Quad, 35 x 88mm). 28 infantry guns is a bit high, the field artillery is normal but the rocket artillery is not (21 launchers). LMGs have a significant shortage. There are further discrepencies from the norm but these are the biggest ones.
Basically a stronger than normal division in terms of equipment by June 1944.