sPzB 41 in italian hands

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Lupo Solitario
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sPzB 41 in italian hands

#1

Post by Lupo Solitario » 11 Jul 2022, 22:07

Hi

do you know if sPzB 41 had ever been used by italian troops?

If yes, do you know how many, where and when?

thanks

Lupo

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Re: sPzB 41 in italian hands

#2

Post by jwsleser » 14 Jul 2022, 15:44

Buongiorno Lupo

I can't provide a definitive answer to your question, but I can offer about two years of research and over two-hundred books and 1000 pages of documents covering the paracadutisti. I have not encountered any reference to the sPzB 41 in any of these sources. Given the nature of the weapon, the reparti paracadutisti would be the logical units to use the weapon if available to the Italians.

I feel it is unlikely that the Italians would have been able to 'unofficially' acquire any sPzB 41 given how closely the Germans controlled war material either authorized or captured. Ammunition would be a problem if any were acquired.

THIS WEBSITE claims that Italy received a number of these weapon in 1943. No cites/sources are provided.

Two pictures of the gun with UK soldiers were taken on 21 July (Sicily) and 12 Sep 43 (Gran Sasso, but either the date or location is wrong), so the sPzB 41 was in Italy. There is also a picture of a UK soldier examining a gun in AS in March 42. If the date is correct, then gun must have been with Kampfgruppe Burkhardt.

I am currently writing the chapter on 1943 and have been translating documents and books for that time period. If I run across any reference to the sPzB 41, I will post.

Pista! Jeff
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Re: sPzB 41 in italian hands

#3

Post by Urmel » 14 Jul 2022, 18:22

jwsleser wrote:
14 Jul 2022, 15:44
There is also a picture of a UK soldier examining a gun in AS in March 42. If the date is correct, then gun must have been with Kampfgruppe Burkhardt.
Not sure why you conclude that, as I am certain that the sPzB41 was not restricted to paratroop units in 1941/42. The attached is a KStN for Panzergroup level units which I would date to September/October 1941.
Attachments
Screen Shot 2022-07-14 at 6.28.00 PM.jpg
The enemy had superiority in numbers, his tanks were more heavily armoured, they had larger calibre guns with nearly twice the effective range of ours, and their telescopes were superior. 5 RTR 19/11/41

The CRUSADER Project - The Winter Battle 1941/42

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Re: sPzB 41 in italian hands

#4

Post by Urmel » 14 Jul 2022, 20:23

I'm now also wondering if the 'French 25mm' referred to here could actually be German sPzB41?

Does anyone know if the Italian forces fielded the 25mm Hotchkiss?

https://rommelsriposte.com/2011/06/18/c ... uary-1942/
The enemy had superiority in numbers, his tanks were more heavily armoured, they had larger calibre guns with nearly twice the effective range of ours, and their telescopes were superior. 5 RTR 19/11/41

The CRUSADER Project - The Winter Battle 1941/42

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Re: sPzB 41 in italian hands

#5

Post by jwsleser » 14 Jul 2022, 20:50

Urmel
Not sure why you conclude that, as I am certain that the sPzB41 was not restricted to paratroop units in 1941/42.
Because I concluded no such position. :) The sPzB 41 was used by a wide range of German units.

What I stated was that the most likely recipient of German sPzB 41s given to the RE would be the reparti paracadutisti. :wink: If provided, they would have been in limited numbers and the paracadutisti would be the logical unit to employ them.

The reality is that the 47/32 c.c. was just as good and had a better HE round and better range. The only advantage the sPzB 41 had over the "elefantino" was weight: the sPzB 41 weighed 229kg, the 'elefantino" 315kg. However, both were able to be man-handled, so the weight really wasn't an issue. Both could be disassembled for man/animal transport and both could be parachuted. Italy could produce the ammunition for the "elefantino', they couldn't for the sPzB41. Improvements were happening with the 47/32 ammunition, not so for the sPzB 41. I really don't see any reason why the RE would want any sPzB 41s.

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Re: sPzB 41 in italian hands

#6

Post by jwsleser » 14 Jul 2022, 20:58

Urmel
Does anyone know if the Italian forces fielded the 25mm Hotchkiss?
Yes, they did. The 25mm Hotchkiss was an authorized weapon in the compagnia A.S. tipo 42. The light anti-armor platoon in every infantry company was authorized either the 20mm Solothurn or the 25mm Hotchkiss. See my article Italian Divisional Organization Tipo Africa Settentrionale (A.S.) on Comando Supremo.

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Re: sPzB 41 in italian hands

#7

Post by jwsleser » 14 Jul 2022, 21:04

Lupo

I should have qualified my response in that my research is currently only up to Sep 43. I don't know if any Italian units post Sep 43 use it.

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Re: sPzB 41 in italian hands

#8

Post by shultz » 15 Jul 2022, 15:52

Lupo Solitario wrote:
11 Jul 2022, 22:07
Hi

do you know if sPzB 41 had ever been used by italian troops?

If yes, do you know how many, where and when?

thanks

Lupo
hi Lupo,
I have been studying the artillery used by Italy since 1972, and since then I have been collecting books, data and photographs on the subject.
I have never seen photos or texts that speak of sPzB 41 in Italian hands, not even for experiments or proof tests; and I feel I can exclude that it has ever been used by Italy.

For URMEL: Italy has used the two models of 25 mm Hotchkiss, and adopted them as regulations; I have an official manual of the Regio Esercito (Italian Royal Army) dated 1942 where there are photographs and data of both models (N. 4166 Dati tecnici sulle armi della fanteria) .

Best regards,
Shultz

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Re: sPzB 41 in italian hands

#9

Post by Lupo Solitario » 15 Jul 2022, 21:02

Hi

it's always a pleasure counting on Jeff's knowledge... and thanks to Schultz and Urmel, too

Yes, it's also my opinion italians never used sPzB 41. I found in my research on italians on Eastern Front (not in Africa) some unclear reference but I was quite sure in excluding this possibility

thanks again

Lupo

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Re: sPzB 41 in italian hands

#10

Post by jwsleser » 15 Jul 2022, 21:28

Lupo

Are those references in Russia dated after Sep 43? As a detachment of the 10º rgt. arditi served with the 2º div. FJ in Russia after Sep 43, it might have been possible they were equipped with the sPzB 41. That detachment was formed from the 120º cp. and had six or seven camionette mod. 42s (depending on which source you use) and as Urmel pointed out, the Germans used the weapon in a wide variety of roles including mounting the weapon on vehicles. None of my source state the armament of the detachment.

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Re: sPzB 41 in italian hands

#11

Post by Lupo Solitario » 15 Jul 2022, 21:40

No, I'm working on Armir 1942-43.

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Re: sPzB 41 in italian hands

#12

Post by Urmel » 16 Jul 2022, 15:39

jwsleser wrote:
14 Jul 2022, 20:50
Urmel
Not sure why you conclude that, as I am certain that the sPzB41 was not restricted to paratroop units in 1941/42.
Because I concluded no such position. :)
Pista! Jeff
Hi Jeff

I was referring to this:
jwsleser wrote:
14 Jul 2022, 20:50
If the date is correct, then gun must have been with Kampfgruppe Burkhardt.
I don't think 'must' is a conclusion I would sign on to. Not even sure I would go with 'could', as I am not sure if KG Burckhardt was ever in major combat during this period where they could have lost a gun.

I suspect the picture you are referring to is E9090/E9091, in which case I think the gun was pictured during a photo op of captured/destroyed Axis material near Piccadilly Circus (610339, near Matruh). In turn this would almost certainly mean the gun itself was captured during the CRUSADER operations in the Bardia-Tobruk-el Gubi triangle or further west, which would rule out KG Burckhardt as original owner.
The enemy had superiority in numbers, his tanks were more heavily armoured, they had larger calibre guns with nearly twice the effective range of ours, and their telescopes were superior. 5 RTR 19/11/41

The CRUSADER Project - The Winter Battle 1941/42

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Re: sPzB 41 in italian hands

#13

Post by jwsleser » 16 Jul 2022, 17:17

Urmel

I completely understand your comment. My use of the word 'must' is wrong, so mea cupola :(

Yes, the picture I was referring to is E9090. The soldier wearing the soft cap gave me pause (soft cap on the front line?), but the date was far more important than the location.

I assume that the unit diagram you posted in from the 155 Rgt, 90º Lt. What is the date of the diagram? Burckhardt was attached/worked with the 90º Lt. The weapon is labeled asserdem meaning also/including, so not TO&E. There is only one weapon. So where did it come from? When did it first appear in the unit's organization?

Equipment can lost/abandoned due to an air attack or a minor skirmish. Lack of transport caused much equipment to be abandoned in A.S. A major battle is not a requirement.

While my use of the word 'must' was an error, nothing so far presented excludes Burckhardt as the source. I most certainly can be wrong. :) Dates can either support or disprove Burckhardt.

Pista! Jeff
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Re: sPzB 41 in italian hands

#14

Post by Urmel » 16 Jul 2022, 19:20

The diagram is pre-CRUSADER, probably September if I were pressed for a guess. Burckhardt's unit didn't show up in theatre until January.

https://rommelsriposte.com/2010/05/03/f ... he-desert/

Given that Burckhardt didn't show up until the retreat was over, I'm pretty confident that the gun isn't from them.
The enemy had superiority in numbers, his tanks were more heavily armoured, they had larger calibre guns with nearly twice the effective range of ours, and their telescopes were superior. 5 RTR 19/11/41

The CRUSADER Project - The Winter Battle 1941/42

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Re: sPzB 41 in italian hands

#15

Post by Urmel » 16 Jul 2022, 19:21

shultz wrote:
15 Jul 2022, 15:52

For URMEL: Italy has used the two models of 25 mm Hotchkiss, and adopted them as regulations; I have an official manual of the Regio Esercito (Italian Royal Army) dated 1942 where there are photographs and data of both models (N. 4166 Dati tecnici sulle armi della fanteria) .

Best regards,
Shultz
Thanks to you and Jeff for the info!
The enemy had superiority in numbers, his tanks were more heavily armoured, they had larger calibre guns with nearly twice the effective range of ours, and their telescopes were superior. 5 RTR 19/11/41

The CRUSADER Project - The Winter Battle 1941/42

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