War in Slovenia 6.4. - 14.4.1941

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Dr Eisvogel
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Re: King Peter II

#136

Post by Dr Eisvogel » 07 Feb 2017, 00:07

K.Kocjancic wrote:I think the same situation was in Slovenia/Yugoslavia - Novak/Mihajlović were recognized from Yugoslav goverment in exile as Commander of Yugoslav army in homeland for Slovenia/Minister of Defence and CiC of Yugoslav army in homeland.

But in 1944 Šubašić (IIRC :? ) and Tito signed agreement and from then on Četniki/Blue Guard/Yugoslav army in homeland were regarded as national traitors - why? Because they were still fighting the same enemy, but politicians (they should be shot :x ) switched sides.

Regards,
Kocjo
Ivan Šubašić and Josip Broz Tito signed Vis agreement on 16th June of 1944, which envisaged fusion of Yugoslav Army in the Fatherland (JVuO) known as Chetniks and People's Liberation Army of Yugoslavia (NOVJ) known as Partisans. At the same time Draža Mihailović was treated as a traitor.

King Peter II of Yugoslavia dismissed Draža Mihailović (commander of JVuO) from the post of Chief-of-Staff on August 29th 1944 and on September 12th 1944 the King appointed Josip Broz Tito to the post of Chief-of-Staff.

The King also called on members of JVuO to join NOVJ, on September 12th 1944.

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Re: War in Slovenia 6.4. - 14.4.1941

#137

Post by michael mills » 07 Feb 2017, 01:12

Dr Eisvogel, thank you for this information.

I have just finished reading the book by the late Jozo Tomasevich, "War and Revolution in Yugoslavia, 1941-1945: Occupation and Collaboration". Tomasevich says that the declaration of independence by Slavko Kvaternik was organised by the Germans, after Macek had refused the German offer to be the head of a separate Croatian state.

Tomasevich also says that the Croatian Peasant Party split into three factions, one that supported the Ustasha regime, one that supported the Communist partisans, and one led by Macek that remained neutral.

He also says that the great majority of Croatians opposed the Ustasha Party because it was regarded as a puppet of Italy, and after taking power allowed Italy to annex Rijeka and Zone A in Dalmatia. According to him, the majority of Croatians supported the Partisans because they feared the violent Greater-Serbian nationalism of Mihailovic's Chetniks.

I was surprised to read that in the parts of Croatia annexed or occupied by Italy, the Italian armed forces supported the Serbs against the Croats.


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Re: War in Slovenia 6.4. - 14.4.1941

#138

Post by Dr Eisvogel » 07 Feb 2017, 12:18

michael mills wrote:Dr Eisvogel, thank you for this information.

I have just finished reading the book by the late Jozo Tomasevich, "War and Revolution in Yugoslavia, 1941-1945: Occupation and Collaboration". Tomasevich says that the declaration of independence by Slavko Kvaternik was organised by the Germans, after Macek had refused the German offer to be the head of a separate Croatian state.

Tomasevich also says that the Croatian Peasant Party split into three factions, one that supported the Ustasha regime, one that supported the Communist partisans, and one led by Macek that remained neutral.

He also says that the great majority of Croatians opposed the Ustasha Party because it was regarded as a puppet of Italy, and after taking power allowed Italy to annex Rijeka and Zone A in Dalmatia. According to him, the majority of Croatians supported the Partisans because they feared the violent Greater-Serbian nationalism of Mihailovic's Chetniks.

I was surprised to read that in the parts of Croatia annexed or occupied by Italy, the Italian armed forces supported the Serbs against the Croats.
Dear Mr. Mills,

Ustasha movement was organized independently of Germans in the beginning of 1930-ies with the goal: independent state.

German emissary Edmund von Veesenmayer was present in Zagreb throughout the April War and he assisted Kvaternik, although in fact von Veesenmayer was supposed to convince Maček to take over.
Maček was pacifist, Anglophile and he didn't believe in German victory, so he refused. Maček was soon arrested by Ustashas and he spent the war in prison, concentration camps and house confinement.

Immediately before the arrival of the communist Yugoslav Army to Zagreb on May 8th 1945, Maček fled to the West. He knew that the Communists would kill him, because their propaganda was aimed against him especially in 1944/1945, because he was a powerful symbol, since he never collaborated with the Axis.

In Croatian historiography currently it is believed that Kvaternik first proclaimed independent State of Croatia in the seat of government (Banski dvori) and then he went to radio, where he informed the people about proclaiming independent Croatian state.

Note: he proclaimed independent State of Croatia not Independent State of Croatia. And over radio he informed about independent Croatian state. So, it was not official proclamation over radio, but just information.


Germans really started to support Ustashas after March 27th 1941, because until that time they were satisfied with Kingdom of Yugoslavia and since it was a bigger economic unit, it was in their interest not to fragment it.

Even, when Hitler issued directive to attack Yugoslavia, he didn't have a clear picture what to do with Croatia, so he has a reference to put Croatia under Hungarian rule in his instruction.

However, since Croatian state was declared already on 8th of April 1941 in Bjelovar by the mayor Julije Makanec who was supported by the soldiers of 108th Royal Yugoslav Regiment and after the proclamation on 10th of April in Zagreb, Croatian state authority was formed all over the country, in the areas where German and Italian troops didn't arrive yet, Hitler decided to play the Croatian card and allowed for Croatia to include all of Bosnia and Herzegovina, which was not his original plan.

Tomasevich is correct about three factions of Croatian Peasant party.

The faction which merged into Ustashas was led by Janko Tortić.

The faction which joined Communists as their puppet Croatian Peasant Party was led by Božidar Magovac. He was eventually imprisoned in August of 1944 by the Communists.

When the vice-president and member of Maček faction, August Košutić fled to partisans in August of 1944, he was imprisoned by the Communists already in September.

There might have been distrust towards the Ustashas among the general population, because they had close relations with Italy, which was seen as archenemy of Croatia, because of the Adriatic Question, but in April of 1941 there was total euphoria in Croatia, once the state was proclaimed.

The euphoria went down in the beginning of May of 1941, because the Italians dissolved all Croatian civil and military authority along the coast from Crikvenica, Novi Vinodolski, Senj, in whole former Austrian Dalmatia and even in hinterland as far as Mostar in Herzegovina.

So, when the Treaties of Rome where signed on May 18th 1941, Croatia got half of Dalmatia as well as Mostar, Crikvenica, Novi Vinodolski and Senj. The Italians started to handover civil authority in these areas, but the Treaties of Rome was perceived as a betrayal, because Croatia handed over the craddle of its statehood, history and culture to the Italians and was not allowed to maintain its Navy on the Adriatic, which was a humiliation. And there were other humiliating clauses.

Also, among Croatian nationalists of the time, Dalmatian Croats were influential and now they were split, because many lost their homes.

Tomasevich is wrong about Rijeka. It was annexed by Italy in 1924, when Kingdom of Serbs, Croats and Slovenes and Kingdom of Italy partitioned the Free State of Fiume/Rijeka.

From April of 1941 the Italian Second Army had pretty bad relations with Croatian military and civil authorities and they saw opportunity to weaken Croatia by supporting the Serbs.

The reason for such Italian behaviour was the fact that they planned to control the entire Croatia through Ustashas, but since it was the Germans who occupied the northern two thirds of Croatia, the Italians were excluded from the economically richer part of the country and Ustashas in general, with maybe partial exception of Pavelić, were too happy to use Germans against the Italian to secure more independence for Croatia.

Anyway, in the annexed First Zone (there was no Zone A, but First Zone, Second Zone and Third Zone according to the Treaties of Rome) the Italians perceived two major threats:
1.) Croatian irredentism (Italian term for all sorts of Croatian nationalism including Ustasha)
2.) Communism

Initially, the Italians perceived Croatian irredentism as more dangerous than Communism.

Eventually, part of the Croatian nationalists in Dalmatia joined Communist partisans, but only in 1942/43, not in 1941.

In the German zone of Independent State of Croatia, Croats massively joined partisans even later.

By the end of the war Croats were roughly split 50:50 between those supporting Independent State of Croatia and those supporting Democratic Federative Yugoslavia (which included Federal State of Croatia proclaimed in May of 1944 in Topusko).

This Federal State of Croatia was not a sovereign state in reality, but a federal unit and after the war it was treated as a province by Belgrade.

Of course, Chetniks were not really an option for vast majority of Croats, because they were perceived as genocidal killers and they were influenced by Stevan Moljević ideas of total ethnic cleansing of large tracts of Croatia from ethnic Croats.

One last thing, in many areas of Croatia the insurgency in 1941 was a blend of Chetniks and Communists and only in late 1941 or even 1942 clear difference could be noted.

Best regards,
Eisvogel

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Re: War in Slovenia 6.4. - 14.4.1941

#139

Post by michael mills » 07 Feb 2017, 13:35

Thank you again, Dr Eisvogel, for your informative post. I find the history of Yugoslavia during the war absolutely fascinating, because it was not a simple matter of "good" Allies fighting the "bad" Axis, but a maze of different factions sometimes fighting each other and sometimes allied with each other.

One thing I learned from Tomasevich's book which I found very interesting was that Bosnian Muslin leaders asked Hitler to make Bosnia-Herzegovina part of Germany rather than of Croatia, to give it the same status of Reichsland which it had had after 1908 under the sovereignty of the Habsburg Monarchy. It appears that the Muslims, although their main enemy was Serbian nationalism, nevertheless did not trust the Croatian nationalists either.

From reading the book by Tomasevich, I gained the impression that although he was an American of Croatian origin, he did not support the idea of an independent Croatia and wanted it to remain part of the federal Yugoslavia created by Tito.

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Re: King Peter II

#140

Post by G. Trifkovic » 07 Feb 2017, 15:38

Dr Eisvogel wrote:
K.Kocjancic wrote:I think the same situation was in Slovenia/Yugoslavia - Novak/Mihajlović were recognized from Yugoslav goverment in exile as Commander of Yugoslav army in homeland for Slovenia/Minister of Defence and CiC of Yugoslav army in homeland.

But in 1944 Šubašić (IIRC :? ) and Tito signed agreement and from then on Četniki/Blue Guard/Yugoslav army in homeland were regarded as national traitors - why? Because they were still fighting the same enemy, but politicians (they should be shot :x ) switched sides.

Regards,
Kocjo
Ivan Šubašić and Josip Broz Tito signed Vis agreement on 16th June of 1944, which envisaged fusion of Yugoslav Army in the Fatherland (JVuO) known as Chetniks and People's Liberation Army of Yugoslavia (NOVJ) known as Partisans. At the same time Draža Mihailović was treated as a traitor.

King Peter II of Yugoslavia dismissed Draža Mihailović (commander of JVuO) from the post of Chief-of-Staff on August 29th 1944 and on September 12th 1944 the King appointed Josip Broz Tito to the post of Chief-of-Staff.

The King also called on members of JVuO to join NOVJ, on September 12th 1944.
Hi,

Vis Agreement of 16 June 1944 merely states that Šubašić's government will issue a declaration recognizing the efforts of the Communist-led resistance movement, condemn all traitors who collaborated with the enemy (no one is mentioned specifically), and call upon "the people" to unite all its "fighting elements" with the NOVJ and form a single front. "Fusion" of the two forces, in the sense of them forming some kind of joint army as equal partners, was, of course, out of the question.

Also, King Peter II did dismiss Mihailović as stated, but did not name his successor since the "Supreme Command" had been abolished on 25 August 1944. The king's proclamation merely states that he should place himself at the disposal of (the government-in-exile's) army minister, who, at that time, was Ivan Šubašić. Tito never held the post of chief-of-staff, either in the Royal Army or in NOVJ; he was the "Supreme Commander" of the latter, and held the post of "Commissioner for Defense" in National Committee of Liberation of Yugoslavia (Communist-controlled government; he would remain defense minister in the new coalition government formed in March 1945).

Sources: Branko Petranović, Momčilo Zečević (Ed.) Jugoslavija 1918.-1988.: tematska zbirka dokumenata (Belgrade: Rad, 1989), pp. 682-3 [Vis Agreement of 16.6.1944], 690 [Royal Proclamation of 29.8.1944); Branko Petranović, Istorija jugoslavije 1918.-1988.: Druga knjiga - Narodnooslobodilački rat i revolucija 1941.-1945. (Belgrade: Nolit, 1988), p. 285; Radoje i Živan L. Knežević, Sloboda ili smrt (Seattle: n.A., 1981), p. 355.

Cheers,

G.

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Re: King Peter II

#141

Post by Dr Eisvogel » 07 Feb 2017, 20:02

G. Trifkovic wrote: Hi,

Vis Agreement of 16 June 1944 merely states that Šubašić's government will issue a declaration recognizing the efforts of the Communist-led resistance movement, condemn all traitors who collaborated with the enemy (no one is mentioned specifically), and call upon "the people" to unite all its "fighting elements" with the NOVJ and form a single front. "Fusion" of the two forces, in the sense of them forming some kind of joint army as equal partners, was, of course, out of the question.

Also, King Peter II did dismiss Mihailović as stated, but did not name his successor since the "Supreme Command" had been abolished on 25 August 1944. The king's proclamation merely states that he should place himself at the disposal of (the government-in-exile's) army minister, who, at that time, was Ivan Šubašić. Tito never held the post of chief-of-staff, either in the Royal Army or in NOVJ; he was the "Supreme Commander" of the latter, and held the post of "Commissioner for Defense" in National Committee of Liberation of Yugoslavia (Communist-controlled government; he would remain defense minister in the new coalition government formed in March 1945).

Sources: Branko Petranović, Momčilo Zečević (Ed.) Jugoslavija 1918.-1988.: tematska zbirka dokumenata (Belgrade: Rad, 1989), pp. 682-3 [Vis Agreement of 16.6.1944], 690 [Royal Proclamation of 29.8.1944); Branko Petranović, Istorija jugoslavije 1918.-1988.: Druga knjiga - Narodnooslobodilački rat i revolucija 1941.-1945. (Belgrade: Nolit, 1988), p. 285; Radoje i Živan L. Knežević, Sloboda ili smrt (Seattle: n.A., 1981), p. 355.

Cheers,

G.

Hi G.,

thank you for clarification and precise naming of Tito's position.

Fusion of two armies as equal partners was of course out of the question, because "traitors who collaborated with the enemy" condemned in declaration hinted at the leadership of JvuO and "fighting elements" supposed to unite with NOVJ were members of JVuO without the top brass (Draža Mihailović & co.).

Best regards,
Eisvogel

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Re: War in Slovenia 6.4. - 14.4.1941

#142

Post by Dr Eisvogel » 07 Feb 2017, 20:35

michael mills wrote:Thank you again, Dr Eisvogel, for your informative post. I find the history of Yugoslavia during the war absolutely fascinating, because it was not a simple matter of "good" Allies fighting the "bad" Axis, but a maze of different factions sometimes fighting each other and sometimes allied with each other.

One thing I learned from Tomasevich's book which I found very interesting was that Bosnian Muslin leaders asked Hitler to make Bosnia-Herzegovina part of Germany rather than of Croatia, to give it the same status of Reichsland which it had had after 1908 under the sovereignty of the Habsburg Monarchy. It appears that the Muslims, although their main enemy was Serbian nationalism, nevertheless did not trust the Croatian nationalists either.

From reading the book by Tomasevich, I gained the impression that although he was an American of Croatian origin, he did not support the idea of an independent Croatia and wanted it to remain part of the federal Yugoslavia created by Tito.
Dear Mr. Mills,

I think that particular Bosnian Muslim resolution to grant Bosnia status of Reichsgau or something like that and exclude it from Croatia was sent in August of 1942, although there might have been other resolutions.

Well, Bosnian Muslims were divided among themselves into Croat nationalists, Serb nationalists, Yugoslav nationalists, Communists, Turkophiles, Young Muslims etc.
Most of Bosnian Muslims were illiterate and in the period between the two world wars they voted for Yugoslav Muslim Organization (JMO).

The leader of JMO, Džafer-beg Kulenović, became doglavnik, or deputy of Ante Pavelić, after creation of the Independent State of Croatia.


Yes, Jozo Tomasevich was born in Croatia in 1908.

Until 1938 he worked for the National Bank of the Kingdom of Yugoslavia, then he went to the USA.

He supported Croatia's status as a federal unit in Yugoslavia. He was totally opposed to Independent State of Croatia during the period 1941-1945 and also afterwards.

I don't know about his attitude to Croatia's independence in the period between 1990 and 1994, when he died.


Just to clarify what I meant with this sentence from my earlier post:
Even, when Hitler issued directive to attack Yugoslavia, he didn't have a clear picture what to do with Croatia, so he has a reference to put Croatia under Hungarian rule in his instruction.
His idea to put autonomous Croatia under Hungarian sovereignty is supposed to be described in Akten zur deutschen Auswärtigen Politik, Serie D, Band XII/2, Dok. 291, p. 404.

The reference to this document, which I called directive/instruction and it might have been precisely called somewhat differently, is in the footnote 9 of the book by Dušan Lukač, Treći Rajh i zemlje jugoistočne Evrope, Volume III, published in Belgrade in 1987:
http://znaci.net/00003/694.pdf

By April 12th 1941, Hitler dropped the idea of subjugating Croatia under Hungary, because obviously he got reports of widespread support for newly proclaimed independent State of Croatia.


Also, one of Ante Pavelić's most important men in Austria, lieutenant colonel of Austro-Hungarian Army, Ivan Perčević, was interned (konfiniran) by Germans in Schwerin in 1938 after Anschluss.

The claim comes from Bogdan Krizman, Pavelić između Hitlera i Mussolinija, published in Zagreb in 1980, footnote 30.
http://znaci.net/00003/528.pdf

It serves to illustrate the lack of close German-Ustasha relations, before the war.

Also, in early 1930-ies Ustasha movement published its materials in Free City of Danzig, but when the city government was taken over by National-Socialists (in 1933), they had to cease their activity there.

In 1934, Kingdom of Yugoslavia provided asylum for Austrian Nazis, after their failed coup d'état. Some of them were stationed in Croatian city of Varaždin by Yugoslav authorities.


Finally, Mr. Mills please read pages 184-186, in the book written by dr. Ba Maw.
He is sympathetic to the Japanese and his whole book describing Burmano-Japanese relations is a fine analysis of two nations. It shows similarities with Croatian case.
http://www.burmalibrary.org/docs19/Ba_M ... en-ocr.pdf
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 1#p2058211

Best regards,
Eisvogel

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Re:

#143

Post by SloveneLiberal » 08 Sep 2019, 10:11

michael mills wrote:
13 Nov 2003, 01:23


What was the general political attitude of the ethnic Slovenian population at the time of the German invasion in April 1941?

Did they regard themselves as under Serb domination? Did they want to break away from Yugoslavia and become independent (as they did in 1991)? Did they see the invasion of Yugoslavia as an opportunity to gain independence?
I think this part of question by mr. Michael Mills was not answered properly. Slovenian official leader at that time was ban Marko Natlačen and in fact he established so called ''Narodni svet'' on 6. of April 1941. After NDH was declared by ustasha on 10. of April 1941 Narodni svet declared or tried to declare Slovenia an independent state and Natlačen went to the Germans in Celje and asked them to allow Slovenia to be an independent state in the sphere of interest of the Third Reich. Royal Yugoslav army at that time did not capitulate yet. Of course he did not succeed with his propasal because Germany and Italy made an agreement to split and occupy the country.


Pregled zgodovine NOB, 1. knjiga, written by dr. Metod Mikuž and pubslished in 1960. Pages 48-52.


Other details i already explained here:

viewtopic.php?f=12&t=236184&p=2147906&h ... n#p2147906

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