War in Slovenia 6.4. - 14.4.1941
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Southpower
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- Location: Maribor, Slovenija
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Southpower
- Banned
- Posts: 98
- Joined: 13 Nov 2003, 12:26
- Location: Maribor, Slovenija
In "Mladina" ( http://www.mladina.si/tednik/200142/cla ... nt.html-l2 ) I saw that 8250 Domobrans and approximately 391 civilians were killed. Could this be right number?
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K.Kocjancic
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- Location: Ljubljana, Slovenia
From 1600 strong force (9 Kmp.) of Domobranci + civillians, formed in Novo mesto on 6.5.'45 from different units. Partisans attacked them in valley of Krka on their way to Litija. They captured about 1800 men and 20 women, from that 1547 were killed after surrender in Gorjanci, Ljubno and Kočevski Rog (only 150 men escaped).
ABout 1000 wounded German soldiers and Domobranci were stationed on the hospital train, which was stoped at Pragersko. There were shot in Anti-Tank trenches.
On 9.5. 150 heavily wounded domobranci (again on the train) + priest and 10 nurses were captured at Radovljica, moved to Ljubljana and killed at Brezarjevo brezno at Podutik.
600 civillian refugees were stoped at bridge at Borovlje, moved to Ljubljana and Kranj - 60 of them were killed.
500 civillian refugees were stoped at Tržič, imprisoned at Kranj and Škofja Loka. 300 of them were killed at Crnigrob and Lubnik.
From 800 Domobranci; returned on 25.5. from Vetrinjsko polje- 760 were killed in Rog.
From 3000 Domobranci, returned on 28.5. , were all killed in Poljanska dolina, Lubnik, Crnigrob, Rog, Huda jama and Hrastnik.
From 3000 Domobranci returned on 29.5., 2850 were killed at Huda jama, Hrastnik and Rog.
From 3000 Domobranci, returned on 30.5., 2679 were killed at Huda jama, Hrastnik and Rog.
From 500 men (last of the brave), returned on 31.5., 475 were killed at Huda jama and Hrastnik.
Plus don't let me start to talk about Croatian and Serbian soldierw, who were also killed in Slovenia. Remember Tezno?
I'll post more info tomorrow - don't have one book here.
Regards,
Kocjo
ABout 1000 wounded German soldiers and Domobranci were stationed on the hospital train, which was stoped at Pragersko. There were shot in Anti-Tank trenches.
On 9.5. 150 heavily wounded domobranci (again on the train) + priest and 10 nurses were captured at Radovljica, moved to Ljubljana and killed at Brezarjevo brezno at Podutik.
600 civillian refugees were stoped at bridge at Borovlje, moved to Ljubljana and Kranj - 60 of them were killed.
500 civillian refugees were stoped at Tržič, imprisoned at Kranj and Škofja Loka. 300 of them were killed at Crnigrob and Lubnik.
From 800 Domobranci; returned on 25.5. from Vetrinjsko polje- 760 were killed in Rog.
From 3000 Domobranci, returned on 28.5. , were all killed in Poljanska dolina, Lubnik, Crnigrob, Rog, Huda jama and Hrastnik.
From 3000 Domobranci returned on 29.5., 2850 were killed at Huda jama, Hrastnik and Rog.
From 3000 Domobranci, returned on 30.5., 2679 were killed at Huda jama, Hrastnik and Rog.
From 500 men (last of the brave), returned on 31.5., 475 were killed at Huda jama and Hrastnik.
Plus don't let me start to talk about Croatian and Serbian soldierw, who were also killed in Slovenia. Remember Tezno?
I'll post more info tomorrow - don't have one book here.
Regards,
Kocjo
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Southpower
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Thanx very much on this data. Its a quite large number.
The question is how much of this civilians werent collaborators (raztrganci). In no point I dont support theory about collective fault but it was always praticed by the axis (remember Serbia - they shot 50 Serbs or 100 Gipsies for one killed German officer whether it was their fault or not) everywhere. At the end of war the same model was accepted by partisans.
The question is how much of this civilians werent collaborators (raztrganci). In no point I dont support theory about collective fault but it was always praticed by the axis (remember Serbia - they shot 50 Serbs or 100 Gipsies for one killed German officer whether it was their fault or not) everywhere. At the end of war the same model was accepted by partisans.
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K.Kocjancic
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Raztrganci and collaborators are (again) two different things.
Raztrganci or (official name) Gegenbande were special units made up of local population and German soldiers/policemen under command of Police or Gestapo. For more info click here.
Collaborators are of different categories:
- military,
- political,
- economical,...
I see Vaške straže as reactionary force which were formed unofficial, against Italian govermant. But when they realized that they are to week to defend themselves against Partisans they asked Italians for helped. They gave them some old French rifles and that was it. So was formed MVAC. After the capitulation of Italy and destruction of MVAC, three different reactionary forces were establish:
- SNVZ (Primorje),
- Slovensko Domobranstvo (Ljubljanska pokrajina) and
- Samozaščita/Gorenjsko domobranstvo (Gorenjska).
But is true that those Legionares and/or Guards who weren't killed joined Slovensko Domobranstvo.
Regards,
Kocjo
Raztrganci or (official name) Gegenbande were special units made up of local population and German soldiers/policemen under command of Police or Gestapo. For more info click here.
Collaborators are of different categories:
- military,
- political,
- economical,...
I see Vaške straže as reactionary force which were formed unofficial, against Italian govermant. But when they realized that they are to week to defend themselves against Partisans they asked Italians for helped. They gave them some old French rifles and that was it. So was formed MVAC. After the capitulation of Italy and destruction of MVAC, three different reactionary forces were establish:
- SNVZ (Primorje),
- Slovensko Domobranstvo (Ljubljanska pokrajina) and
- Samozaščita/Gorenjsko domobranstvo (Gorenjska).
But is true that those Legionares and/or Guards who weren't killed joined Slovensko Domobranstvo.
Regards,
Kocjo
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Southpower
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No kamerad, I cant unite with you in that! Collaborator is name for everyone who helped Nazis in any way. This term includes also the meaning of "raztrganci". "Raztrganci" wasnt a GB but collaborators for covert ops. They infiltrated themselves into partisan organisations and then reported to the GeStaPo what they found out.
Best known "raztrganci" in Untersteiermark and Austria were Ivan Jelen aka. "Miloš"/"Bruno", Drago Kos aka. "Draž"/"Cvetko". They were personally trained by GeStaPo officer Alois Matejewski who had his Headquarter in Vransko.
Best known "raztrganci" in Untersteiermark and Austria were Ivan Jelen aka. "Miloš"/"Bruno", Drago Kos aka. "Draž"/"Cvetko". They were personally trained by GeStaPo officer Alois Matejewski who had his Headquarter in Vransko.
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K.Kocjancic
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Yes, they were members of Gegenbande. IIRC Kos was Partisan, then captured and then started to work for Germans, right?Southpower wrote:No kamerad, I cant unite with you in that! Collaborator is name for everyone who helped Nazis in any way. This term includes also the meaning of "raztrganci". "Raztrganci" wasnt a GB but collaborators for covert ops. They infiltrated themselves into partisan organisations and then reported to the GeStaPo what they found out.
Best known "raztrganci" in Untersteiermark and Austria were Ivan Jelen aka. "Miloš"/"Bruno", Drago Kos aka. "Draž"/"Cvetko". They were personally trained by GeStaPo officer Alois Matejewski who had his Headquarter in Vransko.
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Southpower
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I wanted to know a little bit about Karl Kladnik aka. Uroš. He operated in Maribor as a GeStaPo collaborant. Picts could be interesant to see. His rank was SS Hauptmann.
Today I reserved book Ilust. zgod. GeStaPa na SLO. I hope to have it until tomorrow.
Otherwise I have the book "Strafverfahrensrecht von Rechtsjustizministerium"(1st of Dec. 1942). I am interested to compare todays "kazensko procesno pravo" and then.
Today I reserved book Ilust. zgod. GeStaPa na SLO. I hope to have it until tomorrow.
Otherwise I have the book "Strafverfahrensrecht von Rechtsjustizministerium"(1st of Dec. 1942). I am interested to compare todays "kazensko procesno pravo" and then.
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K.Kocjancic
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- Posts: 6788
- Joined: 27 Mar 2003, 20:57
- Location: Ljubljana, Slovenia
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K.Kocjancic
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- Posts: 6788
- Joined: 27 Mar 2003, 20:57
- Location: Ljubljana, Slovenia
:roll:-
Southpower
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K.Kocjancic
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Speak english or you will be warned by moderators 
I found only one site about Karl Kladnik on the net and I found out that he was regional secretary of Communist Party of Yugoslavia and also worked for Gestapo. It's in Slovenian language
http://www2.arnes.si/~mbsplobol1/zgodov ... _odpor.pdf
Regards oziroma Lep pozdrav,
Polona
I found only one site about Karl Kladnik on the net and I found out that he was regional secretary of Communist Party of Yugoslavia and also worked for Gestapo. It's in Slovenian language
http://www2.arnes.si/~mbsplobol1/zgodov ... _odpor.pdf
Regards oziroma Lep pozdrav,
Polona
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Southpower
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- Location: Maribor, Slovenija
Kocja, glede na to, da mi ZGOD ni stroka paè pa le hobi, ni problematièno niti èe se èlovek zmoti. Paè navajaš podatke iz virov, ki so ti dostopni in od le-teh je ponavadi odvisna tudi kvaliteta komentarja. Je pa vmes sigurno pomemben faktor subjektivno dojemanje doloèenih situacij.
Ok and from now on lets talk in english.
Ok and from now on lets talk in english.