War in Slovenia 6.4. - 14.4.1941

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K.Kocjancic
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#46

Post by K.Kocjancic » 17 Nov 2003, 22:29

Southpower wrote:Ok and from now on lets talk in english.
Let's do that! :D :wink:

BTW. Črna roka also killed some Germans and Domobranci/Right Politicans.

I was just reading, how Gestapo or SD officers killed an Slovene driver (working for Police) and then blamed the Partisans. But investigating (German) Police officer wrote in his report that just before the shoting, local people heard Germans talking and Officer stated there were no Partisans involved.

You see - there was a lot of strange sh*t in Slovenia.

Regards,
Kocjo

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Locke
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#47

Post by Locke » 17 Nov 2003, 22:36

Yes, there were so many strange things going on in Slovenia during WWII that we argue about it even today :( Isn't it about time for sprava(reconciliation)???
And I almost forgot to mention it: there are some quite interesting articles about partisan warcrimes and crimes during WWII in newspaper Demokracija.

Regards / LP,
Polona


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#48

Post by K.Kocjancic » 17 Nov 2003, 22:39

I know - I have that issues right here (well 4 m away :wink: :lol: ).

Also of forming first anti-partisan post in SLovenia - starting point of Vaške straže.

Regards,
Kocjo

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#49

Post by Southpower » 17 Nov 2003, 23:39

Let me use some words about "Èrna roka":
Èrna roka was first used in "Gorenjska". Then it begun operating in Maribor in july 1944. First victims were old teacher Matija TUŠEK and his wife Josipina. They lived in a small house in Bohova near Maribor and were brutally killed. They fixed on his chest a pamphlet: "To je naredila Èrna roka!" (This was made by Black hand).
10th of July 1944 something knocked on Jože ANTOLINÈIÈs window. He went to open the door because he thought that it was his friend. Neighbors talked next morning about how they heard shots from a revolver. He was discovered next night and he lied on the ground, shot in the chest again with "Black hands" pamphlet on his chest!
17th of July 1944 Jože VIDIC was killed by same method when he was on his way home. Unknown woman told later that she heard some German speech. She said that one voice was like from gestapo mann Gernjak. And then shots.
The same night (17th on 18th of July) clothier Anton MARÈINKO was killed by Black hand.

Reichs attorney in Maribor Sborovsky was interested in inspecting this murders but GeStaPo chief Kurt Stage prohibited all activities around that - FILE CLOSED!

From now on Slovenes knew that GeStaPo itself was "Black hand". They only wanted to cause dissension in the OF (Liberating front) but they failed and they abadoned this operation called "Èrna roka".

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#50

Post by K.Kocjancic » 18 Nov 2003, 13:04

OK, found more (correct) data on killing of Reactionary forces and civilians by Partisans (some data I have already posted, so this list is the updated then the other).

Vetrinjski transporti/Transports from Vetrinje:
- 9.5.'45 - RC train - Radovljica - 128 (from 128) wounded Domobranci were killed, escaped 32 civilians

- 10.5.'45 - civilian group - Tržič - 300 (from 500) Civilians were killed

- 10.5. - civilian group - Borovlje - 60 (from 600) Civilians were killed

- 24.5. - Domobranci (returned also Serbs) - Podrožca - 40 (from 40) were killed

- 27.5. - I. Polk, tehn. bataljon - Podrožca - 1030 (from 1210) were killed

- 28.5. - IV. Polk - Podrožca - 1430 (from 1500) were killed
- Pliberk - 1410 (from 1500) were killed

- 28.5. - Civilians - Pliberk - 160 (from 290) Civilians were killed

- 29.5. - III. Polk and Artilery - Podrožca - 1360 (from 1500) were killed
- Pliberk - 1370 (from 1500) were killed

- 29.5. - Civilians - Pliberk - 70 (from 290) were killed

- 30.5. - II. Polk - Podrožca - 1360 (from 1400) were killed
- Pliberk - 1320 (from 1400) were killed

- 30.5. - Civilians - Pliberk - 20 (from 20) were killed

- 31.5. - remaints of I. Polk - Pliberk - 475 (from 500) were killed


Total:
- from 10676 returned Domobranci 9923 were killed (murdered) - 92,95% killed
- from 1726 returned Civilians 630 were killed (murdered) - 36,5% killed



From 10.5. to Dec. 1946 1850 Domobranci (who couldn't escaped to Vetrinj - stayed in Zidani most) reported themselves to new regime - 1547 were killed; 83,62% killed


From 10.5. to 20.7. another 1870 Domobranci and Vaški stražarji reported themselves to new regime all over the Slovenia - 1370 were killed - 73,26 % killed


ALL TOGETHER:
From 14.379 captured/returned/reported Domobranci, 12.840 were killed (89,3 % killed).

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#51

Post by Southpower » 18 Nov 2003, 16:12

ZZB NOBs ABOUT EXECUTIONS OF SLOVENIAN DOMOBRANS WITHOUT INDICTMENT (I am going to excerpt most important statements):

- declaration about everlasting meaning of antifascist battle
- they condemn executions without indictments
- they hold a brief for rights to bury all persons who were executed in secret and to mark places of deaths

BUT

- they refuse any suggestions or comments of NOBs opponents who would try to excuse collaboration with occupators
- they refuse misusage of such comments for assault on their organisation or NOB in common.

Reference (only in Slovene): http://www.zzb-nob.si/javnost6.htm

2.448 wounded and catched Partisans were killed only by Domobrans.
3.134 killed civilians (opponents of nazifascist forces) were killed only by Domobrans.

Trough different prisons went 80.000 people the same number of Slovenes was deported to Bosnia, Croatia, Serbia and Altreich, 58.000 was sent to concentration camps and 12.000 of them died there.
How many people were in Partisan prisons during WWII?
How many Slovenes were deported anywhere by Partisans?
How many has been in Partisan concentration camps and died there?

MI ANSWER IS NONE! I dont know any sample of Partisan prison during WWII in Slovenia. If you do please share it with me and post also a reference link. Definitely Partisans werent deporting anyone and also they had no concentration camps and gas chambers (""Brausebad"")!

So tell me if Domobrans were fighting for good of our nation?

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#52

Post by Southpower » 18 Nov 2003, 16:17

Locke wrote:Yes, there were so many strange things going on in Slovenia during WWII that we argue about it even today :( Isn't it about time for sprava(reconciliation)???
And I almost forgot to mention it: there are some quite interesting articles about partisan warcrimes and crimes during WWII in newspaper Demokracija.

Regards / LP,
Polona
Teachers always said to us in school: "Start with the first example and then go to the next!" That means that you should say first something about crimes of Domobrans and other collaborationist formations(happened in 1941-1945) and then about Partisan crimes (after 1945).
Am I right?

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#53

Post by Locke » 18 Nov 2003, 17:29

The second paragraph was added as a suggestion for reference material. The crimes of Domobranci took place during war - in wartime, but Partisan killings took place after war - in "peace". I condemn the actions of both sides.

regards,
Polona

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#54

Post by K.Kocjancic » 18 Nov 2003, 18:10

OK, I'll post some when I come home.

Southpower
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#55

Post by Southpower » 18 Nov 2003, 19:57

Locke wrote:The second paragraph was added as a suggestion for reference material. The crimes of Domobranci took place during war - in wartime, but Partisan killings took place after war - in "peace". I condemn the actions of both sides.

regards,
Polona
Eh.......dont try to minimise Domobrans crimes! Domobrans nor Partisans werent forced to kill POWs! That was their own decision and free will. Wartime had no influence.

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#56

Post by Mark V. » 18 Nov 2003, 20:02

Southpower wrote: Teachers always said to us in school: "Start with the first example and then go to the next!" That means that you should say first something about crimes of Domobrans and other collaborationist formations(happened in 1941-1945) and then about Partisan crimes (after 1945).
Am I right?
Your teacher is absolutly correct, that's why you should start from the begining.
An apropriate question would be who started this "civil war"? :?
Why were the villiage guards formed?
How many people were in Partisan prisons during WWII?
How many Slovenes were deported anywhere by Partisans?
How many has been in Partisan concentration camps and died there?
To paraphrase your questions:
How many people were in Domobran prisons during WWII?
How many Slovenes were deported anywhere by Domobrans?
How many have been in Domobran concentration camps and died there?
MI ANSWER IS NONE! I dont know any sample of Partisan prison during WWII in Slovenia. If you do please share it with me and post also a reference link. Definitely Partisans werent deporting anyone and also they had no concentration camps and gas chambers (""Brausebad"")!
The partisans didn't need no prisons or KZ, they simply executed their POWs and "political enemies" and in some cases stage a phoney trial.
So tell me if Domobrans were fighting for good of our nation?
in short no.

Lp
Mare

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#57

Post by Southpower » 18 Nov 2003, 22:59

Should Partisans rather join the axis like Domobrans have one it? Be happy that somebody rised up against occupying forces!
I agree with you fully that village guards were formed because Partisans took them away their food but I condemn their joining to MVAC and Domobrans and other collaborationist forces.
Village guards were not the reason for "civil war" but forming units like I said in sentence before.
Do you think that joining to Hitler and helping him to win the WWII would be better than joining to Partisans who fought also against Italogermanisation?

Domobrans handed over Slovenes to Germans and they knew that they are going to be imprisoned, tortured, deported and sent to KZ and die there. The same thing as if they made it in their own jails, KZ etc.

I agree with you that Partisans SIMPLE executed POWs but are you going to deny the truth that Domobrans made it also? The same is with "suspects".

Again the last question: SHOULD PARTISANS WELCOME OCCUPATORS WITH "VOLKSMUSIK" AND RED CARPETS LIKE DOMOBRANS HAVE DONE IT? WOULD YOU RATHER LIVE UNDER FASCISM?


CHEERS,

MLADEN.

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#58

Post by Mark V. » 19 Nov 2003, 00:05

Look Mladen, maybe I didn't make myself clear enough in my previous post (regarding collaborators) - I condemn their actions and it really doesn't matter if they are white or blue and I'm sorry the things ended the way they did.

But the way I see it - the communist (not partisans) started this "civil war" back in summer 1941, when their secret service VOS (a bit like NKVD) began assassinating well-known anti-communist individual and thus gave the partisans a bad name.

cheers

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#59

Post by Mark V. » 19 Nov 2003, 00:16

Should Partisans rather join the axis like Domobrans have one it?
I would be much happier if the communists gave other parties the chance for a united stand against Germans and Italians and there would be no Village guards, Domobrans, Chetniks and others. But then I guess they wouldn't be communist if they allowed plural democratic thinking and decision making.
I agree with you that Partisans SIMPLE executed POWs but are you going to deny the truth that Domobrans made it also? The same is with "suspects".
Just wanted to make sure you do.

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#60

Post by Southpower » 19 Nov 2003, 00:36

I would be much happier if the communists gave other parties the chance for a united stand against Germans and Italians and there would be no Village guards, Domobrans, Chetniks and others. But then I guess they wouldn't be communist if they allowed plural democratic thinking and decision making.
United stand against Germans? Dont tell me jokes, please. Are you trying again to share me your opinion that collaborants wanted to join struggle against axis?
Today its simple to manipulate with interpretations in conection to collaborants. You are excusing collaboration with "battle against communism". There is no excuse for helping the hanger of our own people, A. Hitler.

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