Greco-Italian War, October 1940-April 1941

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apmoy
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Greco-Italian War, October 1940-April 1941

#1

Post by apmoy » 25 Aug 2004, 12:18

THE ITALIAN INVASION OF GREECE
Image

1.Introduction
On October 28th 1940, at 5:30 a.m., an ultimatum was delivered to Greece by the Italian Embassy in Athens. They were required to cede various coastal positions and strategically important islands to the Italians within three hours. General Metaxas , head of the Greek Council of State, refused these demands and later on the 28th October an Italian invasion of Greece (from the previously conquered Albania) began.
Over the next few weeks, the Italians were repulsed by the Greeks and pushed back into Albania. Britain and the Commonwealth sent troops and equipment to help the Greeks, and Churchill's ideas of a "Balkan Confederation" seemed a little less far-fetched...
But then Hitler and the OKW, disturbed by this turn of events, sent German forces into Greece to prop up the faltering Italians. The Greeks and British/Commonwealth forces were pushed back, and Greece fell to the Axis.
But what were the forces of the Hellenic Kingdom, that trounced such a local power as Italy? Greece 1940 (apart from Crete) is largely a forgotten conflict in the English-speaking world, and perhaps I can redress this balance a bit with the following.
The Italian invasion of Greece in October 1940 was one of Mussolini's major wartime disasters. A totally inadequate Italian army blundered into the mountains of north-west Greece, where it was defeated, thrown back into Albania, only to be rescued by the German invasion of Greece the following year.
2.The Road to War
War with Greece in 1940 was far from inevitable. Whilst King George and sections of the Greek political elite had anglophile tendencies, Greece was led by General Metaxas, a dictator who had far more in common with the Axis leaders than the western democracies. It was the policy of Mussolini and his pro-Albanian clique including Foreign Minister, Count Ciano, Jacomoni, governor-general of Albania and the commanding general, Visconti Prasca which drove Italy to war with Greece.
Hitler's strategic plans required that the Balkans remain quiet. In the summer of 1940 German troops had secured the Rumanian oilfields, Bulgaria was pro-German and the Yugoslavian Prince Regent supported the axis. Even Turkish neutrality was being undermined. Yet it had been agreed that the Balkans would be in Mussolini's sphere of interest and the Italian dictator was jealous of Hitler's success. The complex diplomatic moves and political machinations of the Italian leadership are beyond the scope of this article. However, in the final analysis it was Mussolini who sanctioned the invasion, without advising his ally Hitler until after the invasion had begun.
3.The War plans
The original Italian plan (known as Contingency G) was a limited territorial expansion into the Epirus region for which the nine Italian divisions in Albania were deemed sufficient. However, this was expanded in a second phase to the total occupation of Greece at a meeting only two weeks before the invasion at which the naval and air force chiefs were not even present. The Chief of the General Staff, Marshall Badoglio, who had previously indicated muted objections to the war, argued that 20 divisions would be required. Visconti Prasca asked for only three extra mountain divisions and some support units. Even these were to be fed in when the initial objectives had been achieved. His motives for refusing reinforcements can only be a matter for speculation. However, the fact that a more senior general might command a larger army, probably influenced his thinking.
For such a modest army to be successful required several favourable factors including; strategic and tactical surprise; a supporting invasion by Bulgarian forces; diversionary attacks on the poorly defended mainland; massive air support; and treachery in the Greek armed forces.
Unfortunately for the Italians the Greeks knew the approximate date of the invasion and King Boris of Bulgaria declined Mussolini's invitation to participate. This meant the Greek army was well established in the invasion area with the possibility of shifting reinforcements when Bulgarian neutrality became clear. No diversionary attacks were planned (even the island invasions were called off at the last moment) and a winter offensive coupled with negligible air planning minimised the value of Italian air superiority. Despite optimistic views expressed by commanders in Albania and substantial investment in bribes, there was no evidence that Greek forces would collapse due to internal dissent.
The Greek operational plan was very simple. It consisted of two lines using the natural defensive features of the rivers and mountain ranges. In Epirus the army was to follow the principle of elastic defence avoiding major losses. In Macedonia the first line was to be used as a platform for an offensive onto the Koritsa plateau.
4.The Forces.
Italian Army (CinC General Visconti Prasca)
Julia Alpini Division (Pindus Front):
10,800 men & 20 guns
Littoral Group (coast, two cavalry regs. and one reg. of Grenadiers): 4,823 men & 32 guns
Arezzo Infantry Division (Yugoslav Front): 12000 men & 32 guns
Venezia Infantry Division (Marching from Yugoslav front to XXVI Corps): 10000 men & 40 guns
Tsamouria Corps (General Carlo Rossi, Epirus Front)
Ferrara Infantry Division: 12,785 men & 60 guns +3,500 Albanians
Sienna Infantry Division: 9,200 men & 50 guns
Centauro Armoured Division: 4,037 men & 24 guns + 163 light tanks (90 serviceable)
XXVI Corps (General Gabriele Nasci, Macedonian Front)
Parma Infantry Division: 12,000 men & 60 guns
Piemonte Infantry Division: 9,300 men & 32 guns
The Italian Corps were only established four days before the invasion
Greek Army (CinC General Alexandros Papagos)
Epirus Front -VIII (8th) Division +Colonel Davakis' detachment - 15 battalions & 66 guns
Pindus Front - 3 reinforced battalions & 6 guns
Macedonian Front - IX (9th) Division + 4th Inf. Brig. - 22 battalions & 90 guns
The Greek second line had a further seven battalions in position.
Italian 'standard' divisional organisation in 1940 was 2 (3 btn.) regiments usually with 2 Blackshirt battalions attached. Greek divisions had 3 (3 btn.) regiments. Artillery support was similar with 9 batteries. The Italians were better provided with light mortars and the Greeks had more MGs. Both the Italian and Greek divisions had limited AA and ATG provision. Supply services were poor on both sides although this was more vital to the Italians who had only 107 lorries in Albania out of an estimated requirement of 1,750.
In the air, the Italian Air force in Albania had 55 bombers and 107 fighters (more than half CR42 & 32's). They could also count on support from Brindisi in the form of 119 bombers, 20 JU87's and 54 fighters. The tiny Greek air force had only 27 bombers and 38 fighters serviceable. However, Italian air-ground co-operation was negligible with the Albania air commander, General Ranza being based in Tirana, many miles from army HQ. The supporting squadrons in Italy were not even in telephone contact.
5.The Campaign
Image
The Italian offensive was launched on 28 October in driving rain that deprived the army of air cover. The Littoral group moved slowly down the coast while the Tsamouria Corps advanced through the mountains towards Kalpaki where the only resistance it met with, was the Colonel Davakis' dettachment (2,500 men).
Colonel Davakis:
Image
On their left the Julia Alpini Division split into two regimental battle groups either side of Mount Smolikas with the objective of seizing the Metsovon pass. In Macedonia the XXVI Corps (primarily the Parma Division) was thinly spread in defensive positions.
Rapidly rising rivers and mud tracks resulted in slow progress with Greek screening forces falling back onto prepared positions. Despite the difficulties the Aosta Lancers in the Littoral Group gained a bridgehead over the Kalamas River. The Tsamouria Corps made slow progress on what were little more than mountain tracks with the Centauro's tanks simply sticking in the mud where they had to be abandoned. The Julia Division in the centre began to create a wedge in the Greek position despite the conditions and Papagos responded with infiltration attacks that almost surrounded the Italians.
A sea of snow:
Image
Bersaglieri reinforcements helped extricate the Division only after heavy losses.
On 6 November the Italian command was reorganised into two armies:
9th Army
Piemonte, Arezzo, Parma & Venezia
Divisions in Western Macedonia.
Julia and Bari (diverted from cancelled Corfu invasion) Divisions on the Pindus.
Tridentia Alpini Division in reserve.
11th Army
Ferrara, Centauro and Sienna
Divisions
To be reinforced by four divisions in preparation for an offensive after 5 December.
General Soddu subsequently replaced Visconte Prasca.
With the Italian offensive grinding to a halt, Papagos shifted the X (10th) and XV (15th) Divisions to the Macedonian front to join the IX (9th) Division (C Corps).
Greeks on attack:
Image
The Italians had dug in on the Devoli River with their backs to the Morava massif. XV (15th) Division in the north made spectacular advances in freezing conditions around Mount Ivan whilst IX (9th) & X (10th) Divisions pushed the Italians back off the mountains exposing the key valley town of Korce which was abandoned on the 21 November.
Greeks on the outskirts of Korce:
Image
Italian reinforcements where thrown into the line piecemeal often without supporting arms and into a chaotic command structure. The loss of Koritsa and Erseke exposed the left flank of the 11th Army on the coast which was forced to retreat deep into Albania whilst being vigorously counterattacked by fresh Greek divisions. By 10 January the Klisura junction had been captured and Italian units only managed to stabilise the line south of the port of Vlore. Even this was due more to the lengthening Greek supply lines than effective Italian resistance. Marshall Cavallero replaced General Soddu.
The Greek strategy was now to capture Vlore then stabilise the line so that divisions could be redeployed to the Bulgarian front. It was becoming increasingly obvious that a German invasion was likely. The assault supported by RAF squadrons made some progress but ground to a halt in bad weather.
The Italians again reinforced up to a total of 28 divisions(4 Alpine, 1 Armoured and 23 Infantry) totalling 526,000 men. On 9 March their spring offensive used seven divisions in a limited attack between the Vijose River and Mount Tommorit. The 14 Greek divisions holding the Albanian front gave some ground until the attack was called off on 25 March after heavy casualties on both sides. This remained the position until April when the German invasion of the Balkans moved through the Pindus capturing Ioannina, sealing the Greek army in Albania.
Losses
The Italian casualties amounted to approximately 13,755 killed 25,067 missing (presumably KIA) and 63,242 wounded. The Greek losses totaled 14,562 men, including the 1,237 missing (presumably KIA) and 67,485 wounded. The Greeks suffered most of their casualties in the course of the Italian spring offensive (Operation "Primavera"-1,263 dead, 4,036 wounded. The Greek I (1st) Infantry Division accounted 559 dead, 2,067 wounded). In addition, the Greeks took some 23,000 Italians as POWs. The Italians captured 2,392 Greeks

Reference: Hellenic Society of Keele University
http://www.keele.ac.uk/socs/ks26
http://members.fortunecity.com/fstav1/t ... _12_16.jpg
http://www.keele.ac.uk/socs/ks26/28October/355.gif
http://members.fortunecity.com/fstav1/t ... epirus.jpg
http://members.fortunecity.com/fstav1/t ... era40b.jpg
http://www.keele.ac.uk/socs/ks26/28October/478.gif
http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/ETO/Eas ... gns-11.jpg
http://members.fortunecity.com/fstav1/t ... el1941.jpg
http://members.fortunecity.com/fstav1/t ... ermans.jpg
Last edited by apmoy on 27 Aug 2004, 12:04, edited 1 time in total.

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Peter H
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#2

Post by Peter H » 26 Aug 2004, 01:51

Please reference all narrative and photos to the source websites you have used,if this is not your own work.

Peter


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Re: Greco-Italian War, October 1940-April 1941

#3

Post by DrG » 26 Aug 2004, 21:18

Apmoy, a good text, but I have a few remarks to add:
apmoy wrote:On October 28th 1940, at 5:30 a.m., an ultimatum was delivered to Greece by the Italian Embassy in Athens.
The ultimatum was delivered by the Italian ambassador Emanuele Grazzi to Gen. Metaxas at 3:00 am, not 5:30.
A totally inadequate Italian army blundered into the mountains of north-west Greece, where it was defeated, thrown back into Albania, only to be rescued by the German invasion of Greece the following year.
There is a bit of compression of the time here ;): the Greek counter-attack started in Nov. 1940, there were offensive operations untill Jan. 1941, but by the time of the German attack, Italy had already re-gained numeric superiority and made a limited offensive in March. The Germans would have rescued the Italian position if they had attacked in Dec. 1940, in April the situation was stable or favourable to Italy.
Sienna Infantry Division
The name is mispelled, it was Siena, not Sienna.
Tridentia Alpini Division
Mispelled, the correct name is Tridentina.
The Italian casualties amounted to approximately 13,755 killed 25,067 missing (presumably KIA) and 63,242 wounded. The Greek losses totaled 14,562 men, including the 1,237 missing (presumably KIA) and 67,485 wounded. [...] In addition, the Greeks took some 23,000 Italians as POWs.
The PoWs are to be counted within the number of the MIA, not in addition. Thus of the 25,067 MIA about 23,000 were PoWs (it is a bit higher than the usual 10,000 - 15,000 that I have read, what is your source, please?).

To the good info provided by apmoy I wish to add info about the balances of forces in mid Nov. 1940:
- in Western Macedonia the Greeks had 80,000 men and 198 guns against 45,000 Italians and 200 guns
- in the central sector (area of Grammos) the Greeks had 32,000 men and 114 guns against 23,000 Italians and 112 guns
- in Epirus the Greeks had 80,000 men and 184 guns against 47,000 Italians and 248 guns
- in reserve the Greeks had 40,000 men, while in Albanian ports there were 100,000 reinforcements there had just arrived from Italy.

In mid March 1941, these were the opposing forces:
- IV Italian Army Corps: 11 battalions versus 8 Greek battalions
- VII Italian Army Corps: 38 battalions versus 19 Greek battalions
- XXV Italian Army Corps: 12 battalions versus 10 Greek battalions.

Here there are detailed OOBs for the Italian and Greek forces:
http://niehorster.orbat.com/019_italy/__italy.htm
http://niehorster.orbat.com/027_greece/__greece.htm

Map of the campaign (from: http://www.lasecondaguerramondiale.it/grecia_it.html)
http://www.lasecondaguerramondiale.it/i ... ciait9.jpg

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#4

Post by DrG » 26 Aug 2004, 21:46

These maps are from the book "Ottobre 1940: la campagna di Grecia", Italia Editrice.
Fanteria = infantry
Cavalleria = cavalry
Ragg. = Raggruppamento = group, task force
Attachments
Grecia inverno (gennaio).jpg
Situation at the end of January 1941
Grecia inverno (gennaio).jpg (136.62 KiB) Viewed 13195 times
Grecia linee difensive.jpg
Italian lines: Green: 18 Nov.; Blue: end of Nov., beginning of Dec.; Red: mid Dec.
Grecia linee difensive.jpg (135.96 KiB) Viewed 13195 times
Grecia attacco.jpg
Italian attack, 28 Oct. 1940 - beginning of Nov. 1940.
Grecia attacco.jpg (127.17 KiB) Viewed 13196 times

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Re: Greco-Italian War, October 1940-April 1941

#5

Post by Piotr Kapuscinski » 30 Sep 2010, 19:21

Interesting statistics on Greco-Italian war (in Polish):

http://forum.historia.org.pl/index.php? ... ntry170437

All in all it shows that the Italian army was numerically not strong enough to deal with Greece.

Also Italian infantry was poorly equipped in machine guns compared to Greek infantry.

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Re: Greco-Italian War, October 1940-April 1941

#6

Post by Dili » 01 Oct 2010, 00:55

Anyone that studied that War know that. At begin it was just a playground for Ciano games that supposedly corrupted several greek hands to get an easy victory. Italy had around half divisions that the existing Italian Army plan required.

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Re: Greco-Italian War, October 1940-April 1941

#7

Post by xristar » 12 Nov 2010, 14:18

Domen121 wrote:Interesting statistics on Greco-Italian war (in Polish):

http://forum.historia.org.pl/index.php? ... ntry170437

All in all it shows that the Italian army was numerically not strong enough to deal with Greece.

Also Italian infantry was poorly equipped in machine guns compared to Greek infantry.
The Italians began their attack on 28 October with a numerical superiority they deemed sufficient (that's stated repeatedly in Prasca's book, who defended his plan after the war). Both the Italian and the Greek High Commands thought it very probable that the Italians would capture Epirus. The Greek high command had given orders to the Greek forces in Epirus to fight a flexible defense in succesive defense lines, the final line of defense -river Arakhthos- leaving all of Epirus to the Italians.

The Greek plan was to recapture Epirus once the Greek mobilisation was completed. The Italian plan was that, once Epirus was captured, they would continue with a two-pronged offensive towards Athens. Salonica would come either in a third phase, with a combined attack from Albania and Thessaly, or sooner if Bulgaria intervened or Greece collapsed.

An italian regiment had 24s M/HMGs and 108 LMGs compared to 36 H/MMGs and 108 LMGs to a greek regiment*. However the greek machineguns were mostly obsolete: standard MMG was the M1907 and about half the squad LMGs were the Chauchat M1915 (both guns were old and unreliable). According to Greek official histories, the Greek army was very defficient in automatic weapons, if not quantitatively certainly qualitatively, and acquisition of machineguns from Britain was among first priorities.

(*:To be honest, Greek divisions had machinegun battalions, which added a further number of machineguns. I don't know if Italian divisions also had machinegun battalions, so perhaps there was even bigger imbalance in machinegus thatn comparisson between regiments suggests.)

Dili wrote:Anyone that studied that War know that. At begin it was just a playground for Ciano games that supposedly corrupted several greek hands to get an easy victory. Italy had around half divisions that the existing Italian Army plan required.
The Italian plan of the 9-11 (depends on how one is counting) divisions offensive was not to capture all of Greece, but only Epirus, which would be used the base for further advance, after additional reinforcements would arrive.

Prasca, in his book, defends his planning (Prasca drew the Emergenza G plan), claiming that:
1)The 20-division offensive, drawn in 1939 was not realistic, at least at the time when Mussolini decided to attack Greece, because, among other reasons, the present infrastructure in Albania could not support the main 12-division offensive towards Macedonia and Salonica, which would have to be supplied from the port of Durres, 300km away from the Greek border. Prasca correctly points out that as the Italian forces would advance further into Greece and towards Salonica, the distance from Durres would become even greater, Salonica being another 200+ km from the border. The 1939 plan was drawn on maps depicting roads that did not exist (they were planned to be contructed, but hadn't been by 1940). Unless Mussolini was willing to postpone the operation by several months (in retrospect we can say by MANY months), there was no cpability of a 20-division offensive from Albania as such.
2)Prasca, correctly points out that, since the element of surprise had irrevocably been lost since August 1940, it was impossible for the Italians to achieve a numerical superiority greater than that already existing on 28 October (2.5:1 according to Prasca), because the Greeks proportionally reinforced their forces as the Italians increased theirs in Albania (for instance the Greeks had pre-mobilised a division (9th), a brigade (4th) and two regiments (50th and 10th) between August and the start of the war in October, to counter the increase of Italian forces in southern Albania).
3)The existing Italian forces against Epirus were sufficient. Prasca believed that if he was left to continue his attack after 9th November (when the Italian General Staff ordered all offensive operations to stop) he would capture Epirus. Although the existing information suggests that this was not very possible by 9th of November, the Greek official history agrees that the Italians should have been able to take Epirus, and accuses the Italian commanders of being too cautious, and not exploiting their breakthroughs. (I should add to this, that the Italians also suffered from the very slow movement of their supplies and artillery, due to the poor roads and the rain, which made their advance inevitably sluggish).
4)The very essence of the Italian plan of 1940, was the constant wave of reinforcements. The idea was to capture Epirus, in order to use the greek ports of Igoumenitsa and Preveza to trasport the reinforcements from Italy, rather than trasporting them to Durres or Vlore and Sarande in Albania, which were either too far away or had poor port-infrastructure and capacity. So strictly speaking, the Italians did not plan to take over Greece with only 11 divisions. They planned to take Epirus and its ports with a 5/6-division quick offensive, and then transport the additional necessary forces to Epirus and continue the offensive. Information is vague, but it seems that the Italians planned to transport immediately after the fall of Epirus 4 divisions, namely 2 to Preveza and 1+1 to Vlore and Durres. So, ideally, by the end of November the Italians planned to have 15 divisions deployed in Epirus and Albania, with 6 of which they would attack towards Athens, the rest keeping the Greek forces in Thessaly and Macedonia busy with limited harashments.
As such, the failure of the Italian operation layed equally to the Italian General Staff who failed to transport the reinforcements as planned (supposedly they would have been completed by 15 November), as well of course as to the Albania High Command for failing to execute the plan on the field of battle.

For what its worth, the Greek official history recognizes the Italian plan as to be clever and correct. Had it been carried out properly, it had many chances of success (if not complete, ie fall of Athens, at least partial).

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Re: Greco-Italian War, October 1940-April 1941

#8

Post by P.108 » 13 Nov 2010, 12:47

xristar wrote: 2)Prasca, correctly points out that, since the element of surprise had irrevocably been lost since August 1940, it was impossible for the Italians to achieve a numerical superiority greater than that already existing on 28 October (2.5:1 according to Prasca), because the Greeks proportionally reinforced their forces as the Italians increased theirs in Albania (for instance the Greeks had pre-mobilised a division (9th), a brigade (4th) and two regiments (50th and 10th) between August and the start of the war in October, to counter the increase of Italian forces in southern Albania).
Prasca is currently seen as one of the major causes of failure of the italian offensive (by Cervi particularly) and had the interest in minimizing his mistakes also his numbers have been indicated as wrong in all the recent Italian publications, particularly in the work edited by the historical office of the Italian Army, in this book is noted also that in some areas the numerical superiority was for the Greeks:

in Epirus: 15 Greek battalions against 24 Italians;
in the Pindus: 2 Greek battalions vs. 5 Italians;
in Western Macedonia: 22 Greek battalions against 16 Italians;

The proportions indicated by Prasca there were only in the Pindus.

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Re: Greco-Italian War, October 1940-April 1941

#9

Post by Piotr Kapuscinski » 14 Nov 2010, 01:42

Comparison of forces in the Greco-Italian War:

Air Forces:

Italians:

Air Group "Albania" - 97 aircrafts, including ca. 39 bombers (15 S.M.79, 24 S.M81), 40 fighters (14 C.R.32, 8 C.R.42, 18 G.50) and ca. 18 reconnaissance-light bomber machines (Ro.37bis);
Command of 4. Air Area - Italy near Brindisi - 147 aircrafts: 26 hydroplanes (Z.506bis); 80 bombers (18 BR.20; 18 SM.81; 44 Z.1007bis); 20 dive bombers (Ju 87B); 21 fighters (9 C.R. 32, 12 G.50).
Command of Aegean Sea Islands - ca. 74 aircrafts: unknown number of hydroplanes (probably ca. 20 - 30, mix of Z.501, Z.506, Ro44 and Ro45); 36 bombers (12 S.M.81; 24 S.M.79); 13 fighters (7 C.R.42 and 6 C.R.32).

In total ca. 318 aircrafts, including: ca. 51 hydroplanes, 175 bombers, 74 fighters, 18 recon planes

Greeks:

4 fighter squadrons - 3 with (imported from Poland, by the way) 12 PZL P.24 each (mainly P-24F, but also some A and G models) and one squadron with 9 M.B.151;
3 bomber squadrons - 12 machines each (12 x Blenheim, 12 x Battle and 12 x Potez 633);
5 observation squadrons (16 aircrafts each), including one with Hs126 and 4 with Potez 25 or Breguet XIX aircrafts
3 squadrons of naval aviation with 8 Fairey IIIF; 12 Do 22K and 12 Anson aircrafts

In total 193 aircrafts, including 45 fighters, 36 bombers, 80 reconnaissance, 32 naval

Ground forces (situation as of 7th day of war):

Infantry battalions: 42 Greek vs 54 Italian
Cavalry squadrons: 41 Greek vs 12 Italian
Tank battalions: 0 Greek vs 4 Italian
Light Machine Guns: 1546 Greek vs 1592 Italian
Heavy Machine Guns: 520 Greek vs 510 Italian
Grenade Launchers: 0 Greek vs 684 Italian
Mortars: 52 Greek vs 174 Italian
Infantry Guns: 26 Greek vs 40 Italian
Guns and Howitzers up to cal. 100mm - 60 Greek vs 168 Italian
Guns and Howitzers over 100mm cal. - 40 Greek vs 108 Italian
Anti-Aircraft Guns - 0 Greek vs 56 Italian
Anti-Tank Guns - 0 Greek vs 48 Italian
Tankettes and Tanks - 0 Greek vs 184 Italian

Comparison of Greek and Italian infantry divisions:

Italian:

http://www.orbat.com/site/ww2/drleo/019 ... nf_40.html

Greek:

http://ww2greece.wargaming.info/files/g ... vision.pdf

http://www.orbat.com/site/ww2/drleo/027 ... nf_40.html

Italian division had stronger artillery (however, both divisions had relatively weak artillery compared to for example infantry divisions of German or Soviet army) - 12 howitzers 105mm, 12 guns 75mm (in total 24 pieces) versus 8 howitzers or guns 105mm and 16 howitzers or guns 75mm (in total 24 pieces too). Number of pieces was the same, but Italian artillery had to support only 2 infantry regiments (because each Italian division had just two infantry regiments), while Greek artillery had to support 3 infantry regiments. On the other hand, as was just mentioned, Greek divisions had 50% more infantry (3 regiments vs 2 regiments in Italian divisions).

While comparing infantry regiments, regiments of Italian infantry divisions had better support of heavy weapons - 6 mortars 81mm, 54 grenade launchers and 4 infantry guns versus Greek 4 mortars 81mm and 2 infantry guns per regiment. However, some of Greek soldiers were equipped with Level V-B rifles which could fire rifle grenades. Other disadvantages of Greek infantry division was lack of AA and AT guns and weakness of engineering forces (only 1 company of engineers per division). Greek army was one of those armies which were called by Americans "bayonet armies" - it was lacking modern, technical means of combats developed largely after WW1. Reconnaissance units of Greek divisions consisted of cavalry, however this was not a disadvantage in mountainous terrain.

On one field Greek infantry divisions were superior to their Italian enemies. Namely - machine guns. Greek army had better saturation of MGs than their Italian counterpart. Each Greek infantry regiment had 36 HMGs compared to just 24 in Italian regiments (in entire Greek division 115 HMGs compared to just 80 in Italian divisions). Amount of LMGs per regiment was similar in both armies, but in entire Greek division there were 336 Light Machine Guns, compared to 270 in Italian divisions. Generally - despite overall Italian superiority in artillery and heavy weapons, it is hard to recognize their armament & fire support available as powerful enough to dampen, quash the Greek machinegun fire. Thus Italians were doomed to suffer heavy losses due to strong fire of Greek machine guns while attacking.

Other divisions:

OOB of Greek cavalry division:

http://www.orbat.com/site/ww2/drleo/027 ... av_40.html

OOB of Italian mountain (Alpina) division:

http://niehorster.orbat.com/019_italy/4 ... ini_40.htm

Italian mountain divisions were much weaker than their infantry divisions in terms of numbers and equipment. Moreover, Italian mountain division "Julia" which was involved in Greece was even weaker than according to authorized strength, because it had just 5 battalions instead of 6.

Italian armoured division:

http://niehorster.orbat.com/019_italy/4 ... ata_40.htm

According to authorized strength these divisions should be equipped with poorly armed and poorly armoured tankettes L3/35. Reality was even worse - Italians lacked even these poor tankettes and in reality large part of "tanks" of their armoured division (only one was involved) were very obsolete "tanks" Fiat 3000 designed in 1919:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L3/35

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiat_3000

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Re: Greco-Italian War, October 1940-April 1941

#10

Post by xristar » 14 Nov 2010, 17:36

P.108 wrote: Prasca is currently seen as one of the major causes of failure of the italian offensive (by Cervi particularly) and had the interest in minimizing his mistakes also his numbers have been indicated as wrong in all the recent Italian publications, particularly in the work edited by the historical office of the Italian Army, in this book is noted also that in some areas the numerical superiority was for the Greeks:

in Epirus: 15 Greek battalions against 24 Italians;
in the Pindus: 2 Greek battalions vs. 5 Italians;
in Western Macedonia: 22 Greek battalions against 16 Italians;

The proportions indicated by Prasca there were only in the Pindus.
I've many times read about Prasca negatively, but I have come to think he became the scapegoat for more general defficienies in the italian military. Even if Prasca is to be blamed for the failure of the initial italian invasion (28 October-9 November), the subsequent collapse of the italian forces in Albania cannot be blamed on Prasca.

Domen121 wrote: Italian division had stronger artillery (however, both divisions had relatively weak artillery compared to for example infantry divisions of German or Soviet army) - 12 howitzers 105mm, 12 guns 75mm (in total 24 pieces) versus 8 howitzers or guns 105mm and 16 howitzers or guns 75mm (in total 24 pieces too). Number of pieces was the same, but Italian artillery had to support only 2 infantry regiments (because each Italian division had just two infantry regiments), while Greek artillery had to support 3 infantry regiments. On the other hand, as was just mentioned, Greek divisions had 50% more infantry (3 regiments vs 2 regiments in Italian divisions).
Italian divisions had 36 pieces in their artillery regiment compared to 24 in the greek (check your own links). Italian divisions also had 8 47mm guns, 8 65mm guns and 30 medium mortars (81mm) compared to only 6 65mm guns and 12 81mm mortars in the greek division. Moreover, most italian divisions had one Blackshirt legion, with two battalions, for a total of 8 battalions per division (though admittedly, Blackshirts were generally inferior to regular infantry).
Domen121 wrote:Italian mountain divisions were much weaker than their infantry divisions in terms of numbers and equipment. Moreover, Italian mountain division "Julia" which was involved in Greece was even weaker than according to authorized strength, because it had just 5 battalions instead of 6.
Italians had both "mountain" and "alpini" divisions. Julia was an "alpini" division. "Alpini" divisions were light but highly trained divisions, intended for high altitude combat (1,500m +). "Mountain" divisions were infantry divisions adapted to mountainous terrain. I think the Italians disbanded the "mountain" divisions at some point during WWII, and kept only the Alpini.
Domen121 wrote: Italian armoured division:

http://niehorster.orbat.com/019_italy/4 ... ata_40.htm

According to authorized strength these divisions should be equipped with poorly armed and poorly armoured tankettes L3/35. Reality was even worse - Italians lacked even these poor tankettes and in reality large part of "tanks" of their armoured division (only one was involved) were very obsolete "tanks" Fiat 3000 designed in 1919:
I don't think any Fiat 3000 even appeared in Albania, let alone fighting. I know that the "Centauro" armoured division had about 90-100 operational tankettes (CV-33/35) when the war began. Prasca puts the nominal strength to 163 tankettes, with another 6 attached to "Parma" division. These tankettes were mostly lost in the first days of combat (over 80 tankettes lost). They were of very little actual value, since their thin armour could be penetrated even by rifles and machineguns, but they affected the morale of friendly and enemy troops.
In November 1940 a battalion of M13/40 arrived in Albania (I think about 40 tanks), although they were not used concentrated at any point. According to one source about 20 M13/40 were lost in Albania (I don't know if that's true).

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Re: Greco-Italian War, October 1940-April 1941

#11

Post by Piotr Kapuscinski » 14 Nov 2010, 18:34

These tankettes were mostly lost in the first days of combat (over 80 tankettes lost).
According to one source about 20 M13/40 were lost in Albania (I don't know if that's true).
But most of them could be repaired and return to duty several days up to several weeks later.

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Re: Greco-Italian War, October 1940-April 1941

#12

Post by Idomeneas » 15 Nov 2010, 20:37

Domen121 wrote:
These tankettes were mostly lost in the first days of combat (over 80 tankettes lost).
According to one source about 20 M13/40 were lost in Albania (I don't know if that's true).
But most of them could be repaired and return to duty several days up to several weeks later.
Not be so sure my friend Domen 121.
Regarding the tankettes, in addittion to the number of them that were totally destroyed, we have to take in account that about 40-45 were captured and used by the Hellenic Army forming an independent unit.

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Re: Greco-Italian War, October 1940-April 1941

#13

Post by xristar » 16 Nov 2010, 11:18

Most of the CV35 tankettes were lost completely, because they fell to Greek hands. As mentioned already, the Greeks put about 30-35 back to service. Anyway, tanks and tankettes played very little role in the war in Albania. Had the Greek army broken through to the central Albanian plains, the Italian tanks could have been very important. The Greeks also intended to use their tankette force towards Vlore once Tepeleni fell.

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Re: Greco-Italian War, October 1940-April 1941

#14

Post by Sid Guttridge » 16 Nov 2010, 15:17

Interesting stuff.

One proviso:

Apmoy's original OB gives all the Italian forces in Albania, but only those Greek forces on the Greek-Albanian border.

This makes it look as though the Italians were attacking with the ground odds on their side.

However, the Greeks were already in an advanced state of mobilization and had much more of their army in immediate reserve.

In fact, until the end of 1940 the Greeks had a numerical advantage over the Italians in Albania and it was partly this that enabled them to regain the initiative so quickly and counter-attack. The Greek advance stopped shortly after Italy achieved numerical superiority on the ground.

The reason why the Italians risked attacking Greece with forces of barely a third of what the Greeks could mobilize was that they thought the political groundwork had been laid to ensure there would be no significant Greek resistance. They had taken advantage internal discord to win in Ethiopia, Spain and Albania and believed sowing similar political discord would allow them to prevail cheaply in Greece. They were spectacularly wrong. Opposing the Italian invasion seems to have been virtually the only thing Greek royalists, republicans, nationalists and communists could agree on!

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Re: Greco-Italian War, October 1940-April 1941

#15

Post by xristar » 17 Nov 2010, 11:41

Marechal wrote:Interesting stuff.

One proviso:

Apmoy's original OB gives all the Italian forces in Albania, but only those Greek forces on the Greek-Albanian border.

This makes it look as though the Italians were attacking with the ground odds on their side.

However, the Greeks were already in an advanced state of mobilization and had much more of their army in immediate reserve.

In fact, until the end of 1940 the Greeks had a numerical advantage over the Italians in Albania and it was partly this that enabled them to regain the initiative so quickly and counter-attack. The Greek advance stopped shortly after Italy achieved numerical superiority on the ground.

The reason why the Italians risked attacking Greece with forces of barely a third of what the Greeks could mobilize was that they thought the political groundwork had been laid to ensure there would be no significant Greek resistance. They had taken advantage internal discord to win in Ethiopia, Spain and Albania and believed sowing similar political discord would allow them to prevail cheaply in Greece. They were spectacularly wrong. Opposing the Italian invasion seems to have been virtually the only thing Greek royalists, republicans, nationalists and communists could agree on!
Actually, the Greek mobilisation began on 28 October, right after Italy attacked. The units on the Albanian border had been pre-mobilised, but that's a different thing. In Epirus, no reinforcements arrived until the second week of the war. You probably have Pindus sector in mind, where indeed, the Greek forces increased from 2 battalions to ~15 (compared to 5 Alpini battalions +parts of the 6-battalion strong "Bari" inf. div.) by the end of the second week of combat.

The Greeks had achieved numerical superiority already by 14 November, when their counteroffensive began. At the time IIRC they had 214,000 men on the Albanian front. The Italians had begun the war with about 105,000 men. Numerical parity had been achieved by the 1st of January, when the Italians had 272,500 men. I don't know the exact Greek strength at the time, but I know the maximum they deployed in Albania was about 280,000 men. The Greeks coninued to attack in the first months of 1941 because they had better morale and took the Italians by surprise, attacking in unexpected sectors, and thus having local numerical superiority.


The biggest failure of the Italians in this particular war, seems to be the logistical system, or basically the lack of it. The Italians attacked without proper logistical preparations. According to their sources they barely had enough ammunition and food supplies to continue fighting after the first weeks. Although their general materiel picture was better than the Greek, in that particular campaign they screwed up, and until they could sort things out they were constantly on the retreat.
Other factors that seems to have played their role, is the overall unsuitability of the Italian infantry divisions for mountain warfare, at least compared to the standard Greek infantry divisions; the discharge of 600,000 soldiers just prior to the war (IIRC on 15 October), which meant that the divisions sent to reinforce the Albanian front were unprepared and had many troops with only basic training; the bad morale for the Italians and the good for the Greeks that was developed after the first battles, etc.

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