Erytrea-naval war

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patrynius
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Erytrea-naval war

Post by patrynius » 19 Feb 2005 13:56

Hi

Can anyone make a list (or good source) of naval campaign on Erytrea(1940-1941). I know about sinking of Italians destroyers (Manin Sauro-by GB bombers) or Nullo by HMS Kimberley. Also heard of Italians subs on Indian Ocean (indian corvet Panthard were sunk) can anyone help and confirm.

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Lupo Solitario
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Post by Lupo Solitario » 19 Feb 2005 14:22

Italian naval forces in east africa - june 1940

5th destroyer flottilia: Pantera, Tigre, Leone
3rd destroyer flottilia: Battisti, Sauro, Nullo, Manin
submarins: Archimede, Galilei, Torricelli, Ferraris, Galvani, Guglielmotti, Perla, Macallè
torpediniere: Acerbi, Orsini
minelayer: Ostia
colonial ship: Eritrea
Gunners: Porto Corsini, Biglieri
21st MAS flottilia: 5 MAS

Operations:
-June 15, 1940: Macallè sunk
-June 16, Galilei torpedoes an oiler
-June 19: Galilei is caputred by british
-June 23: Galvani sunk
-June 23: Torricelli sunk
-September 6: Guglielmotti sinks an oiler
-October 21: british convoy attacked by italian destoryers. Nullo sunk
- February 18, 1941: Eritrea left East Africa for Japan
- March 1, 1941: Archimede, Ferraris, Guglielmotti and Perla left East Africa for Bordeaux
- April 1, 1941: Leone sunk
- April 3: Battisti, Manin, Sauro sunk
- April 4: Tigre and Pantera sunk
- April 7: MAS 213 torpedoes a british cruiser
- April 8: Massaua fells: end of italian surface operation in Red Sea

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patrynius
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Post by patrynius » 20 Feb 2005 10:55

Hello

Thanks sooo much :)
But if you don't mind I have also next question. I read that Indian Sloop Pathan were toorpeded by Itailian subs? ( .6.40 Bombay)

Best best regards

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Lupo Solitario
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Post by Lupo Solitario » 20 Feb 2005 14:46

totally unknown to me. Italian subs never operated east of Oman

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DrG
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Post by DrG » 20 Feb 2005 17:00

To Lupo's posts I wish to add these info:
- men of the Regia Marina in East Africa on 1 June 1940: 10,214 (7,220 Italians, 2,994 colonials)
- 16 June: the oiler sunk is the James Stove (8,215 grt)
- 23 June: Galvani torpedoes the Indian sloop Pathan (661 tons) at 18°56'N, 72°45'E; the sloop sinks the following day
- 23 June: the submarine Torricelli is sunk during a surface battle against 3 destroyers and two gunships, the gunship Shoreham is hit and the destroyer Karthoum is sunk
- 28 July: the motorship Mathura (8,890), transporting military vehicles, is badly damaged in the port of Aden by Italian bombers with the loss of almost all the cargo
- 8 Aug.: the cruiser Hobarth and the armed boarding vessel Chakdina (3,033 grt) are damaged by splinters of bombs
- 15 and 18 Aug.: new splinter damages to Hobarth
- 9 Sept.: Guglielmotti sinks the oiler Atlas (4,008 grt)
- 20 Sept.: the motorship Bhima (5,280 grt) is damaged by Italian bombers, to avoid its sinking it is grounded
- 12 Oct.: the tug Star of Orient, captured in Berbera in Aug., enters Italian service as Stella d'Italia; her sister Queen of Orient had been sunk in Aug.
- 15 Oct.: splinter damages by air bombs to the merchant ships Ranee (5,060 grt) and Findit (5,144 grt)
- 21 Oct.: torpedoboats Pantera, Leone and Nullo attack a convoy of 31 merchant ships escorted by the cruiser Leander, the destroyer Kimberley and 5 sloops; Kimberley is damaged, Nullo is sunk
- 21 Dic.: the armed boarding vessel Sagitta is hit by obsolete Italian shore guns, 75/15 guns manned by colonial troops, in front of Los Khorch in Somalia
- 27 Feb. 1941: the British cruiser Leander sinks the auxiliary cruiser RAMB I in the Indian Ocean S-W of the Maldives
- 1 April: Leone grounded and then scuttled
- 2 April: British airplanes sink Sauro and Manin
- 3 April: Battisti, damaged by bombs, is scuttled
- 4 April: Tigre and Pantera, both damaged, are scuttled
- 7-8 April: the torpedo boat Orsini bombards the British units approaching Massaua; it is scuttled after the end of the ammo
- 8 April: the MAS 213 torpedoes the cruiser Capetown (4,200 tons), that manages to reach Bombay but needs more than a year of repairs. Then MAS 213 scuttles
- 8 April: Massaua falls; the minelayer Ostia, the gunships Biglieri and Matteucci and the motorship Niobe are scuttled in the port
- 10 April: Assab falls; 3 steamships are scuttled in the port
- 13 June 1941: auxiliary cruiser Parvati sinks on a mine in front of Assab.

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patrynius
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Post by patrynius » 20 Feb 2005 18:52

Hi

I love this forum for person like you :) Your info are v.valuable, thanks
But :D
Can you gave me source of informations (web or smth, title of good book which talks about Italians operation in East Afriva)

p.s. Lupo the same like me, I also never heard about It.subs east of Oman

Thanks again :)

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Lupo Solitario
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Post by Lupo Solitario » 20 Feb 2005 19:41

on the web the best source is http://www.regiamarina.it but there's not so much on this.

Personally I refer to G. Giorgerini Storia della Marina, Uomini sul fondo and La Guerra Italiana sul Mare, unfortunately all stuff in italian only...

Anyway the position given by Dr.G "23 June: Galvani torpedoes the Indian sloop Pathan (661 tons) at 18°56'N, 72°45'E; the sloop sinks the following day" is effectively half way between Oman and India

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patrynius
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Post by patrynius » 20 Feb 2005 20:23

Hi

Best thanks for that. Exactly as you said. In Poland I hardly can get any valuable books about Regia Marina.
Only here :)

As you see about Pathan, everything have to be check.
Thanks a lot
know I'm checking infos about Eritrea colonial ship in Japan :D
ooh, and pity that in that campaign main battles were on the ground, and navy war was only "secondary front"
Best regards

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Post by DrG » 20 Feb 2005 22:26

Sorry Patrynius, but except the site linked by Lupo and the excellent http://www.regiamarina.net, I don't know books or articles about the naval war in East Africa in English language (my sources were Italian texts by Cernuschi and Pellegrini).

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patrynius
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Post by patrynius » 23 Feb 2005 18:58

Hi

As I know (and see in your inforamtyions) in Italian East Africa there were simply no aircrafts in general (about special airgroups for naval support I even don't mention.
Because I see that Italians aircraft can help only in "convoy war" and usually didn't have any major succes.
In oposite to GB aircrafts that can support their own naval in important operation
Best regards

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Lupo Solitario
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Post by Lupo Solitario » 23 Feb 2005 22:30

patrynius wrote:Hi

As I know (and see in your inforamtyions) in Italian East Africa there were simply no aircrafts in general (about special airgroups for naval support I even don't mention.
hmmm...at 10/6/1940 italian air force had 8 bomber squadrons operative in East Africa

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patrynius
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Post by patrynius » 04 Mar 2005 11:55

So in my infos there were
Italian East Africa Air Command - North (Assab)
(5 bomber sq (Ca133 and one on SM81), 2 fighter, 1 recon)

Italian East Africa Air Command - Central (Addis Abeba)
(4bomber sq, 2recon, 2 fighter)

Italian East Africa Air Command - South (Mogadiscio)
(1 bomber, 1recon)

Italian East Africa Detachment (SM.73/Ca.148c/Ca.133T/Fokker F.)

..and no naval airplanes

But comparing to Pathan, that location (18°56'N, 72°45'E) is as the matter of fact almost Bombay (am'I right?)?
was this sinking compare with Galvani attack?

Best regards

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Post by Andy H » 13 Mar 2005 16:35

From Christoph's website
Rotes Meer/Indischer Ozean
Italian submarine “Evangelista Toricelli” is sunk by destroyers “Kandahar” and “Kingston” with sloop “Shoreham”. During the action, destroyer “Khartoum” suffers an internal explosion and sinks in shallow water off Perim Island.
The italian submarine “Galvani” torpedoes the indian patrol sloop “Pathan” at 1:00 AM in position 18°56’N, 72°45’E. The sloop sunk the following day with a loss of 5 crewmembers.
http://www.wwiidaybyday.com/

Andy H

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Post by Martyn R » 15 Apr 2005 22:58

Lupo Solitario wrote:Italian naval forces in east africa - june 1940

5th destroyer flottilia: Pantera, Tigre, Leone
3rd destroyer flottilia: Battisti, Sauro, Nullo, Manin
submarins: Archimede, Galilei, Torricelli, Ferraris, Galvani, Guglielmotti, Perla, Macallè
torpediniere: Acerbi, Orsini
minelayer: Ostia
colonial ship: Eritrea
Gunners: Porto Corsini, Biglieri
21st MAS flottilia: 5 MAS
It strikes me that the balance of the Italian naval forces was not that ideal for the type of war they would have to fight?

Would they have been better to have more MAS/Torpedo boats than destroyers and surely more than 1 minelayer would have been essential? Also not sure of the minelaying capabilities of the subs?

Closing the Red Sea had to be their primary objective and as they could never have the strength to contest the RN why not go for hit and run and minelaying?

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Post by DrG » 17 Apr 2005 15:28

Since 23 May 1940 till the beginning of July 1940 UK stopped its commercial traffic in the Red Sea, then they used only convoys until April 1941. The use of MAS against escorted convoys was extremely dangerous, moreover the seakeeping of Italian MAS was not very good and thus they could be employed only between May and November, when monsoons were not too strong.
No Italian sub was fitted for minelaying; anyway, mining the strait of Bab al Mandab was not possible because it was well controlled by UK and outside it the sea was too deep for the anchor of mines. Moreover in tropical seas there is a climatic problem: algae grow much faster on mines, thus causing their sinking. Italy had the mine P.125/1938 a.e. "coloniale" for the use in the waters of East Africa, but it was just better than the other models, it didn't solve the problem of algae. Most of the 600 mines used by Italy in those seas were of this model.

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