Replacement Panzers in North Afrika

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David W
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Replacement Panzers in North Afrika

Post by David W » 25 Feb 2005 14:41

During a house move, a while ago, I mislaid my details of Panzer reinforcements to North Afrika fro 1941/2. As all I am left with, are the approximate dates of arrival in Tripoli. If I list the dates, can any one supply the datails of the replacement Panzers? Please!

Early/Mid October 1941.

Late December 1941. (At Benghasi)

Early January 1942.

Mid January 1942.

Late April 1942.

Early August 1942.

Mid September 1942.

Plus any others I may have missed (Like late arrivals at Tobruk)

Thanks. :D

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Lupo Solitario
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Post by Lupo Solitario » 25 Feb 2005 18:49

I got this stuff: (IT=italian tanks, IAC=Italian armored cars, GT = German tanks, GAC = German armored cars)(harbors not specified)

January 5, 1942: 52 IT, 56 GT, 14 GAC
January 24: 46 IT, 51 GT
February 7: 4 GT
February 18: 4 IT, 5 GT
February 23: 32 IT, 20 IAC, 80 GT, 4 GAC
March 9: 33 IT, 23 GT
March 18: 36 IT
April 4: 32 IT, 40 IAC, 19 GT
April 10: 5 IT, 14 GT
April 13: 6 IT, 5 GAC
April 15: 18 IT, 23 IAC, 8 GT, 4 GAC
April 24: 29 IT, 2 GT, 5 GAC
April 27: 16 IT, 4 GT
May 2: 9 IT, 18 GT
May 8: 2 GT, 2 GAC
May 12: 39 IT, 4 GT, 3 GAC
May 13: 4 GT
May 14: 16 IT, 1 GAC
May 18: 5 IT, 14 GT
May 22: 2 IT
May 25: 18 GT
May 30: 60 IT, 8 GAC
June 2: 3 IT
June 12: 27 IT, 1 GAC
June 14: 5 GT

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David W
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Post by David W » 25 Feb 2005 18:52

very interesting. Thanks Lupo!!

It doesn't specify which model tanks & armoured cars does it?

Would you describe this source as reliable? (No offence intended)

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Lupo Solitario
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Post by Lupo Solitario » 25 Feb 2005 19:08

1) mmm for italian tanks in two cases specify "L6" models, I suppose others were M or semoventi. As you know, italians had only one kind of armored cars in production.
No data for germans sorry

2) it' s reported as document of italian army historical bureau archives: Arch. USE IT 1209
published "as is" on Lucio Ceva, Le Forze Armate, 1981 in my opinion the best and most authority on italian military history...( no offence received :D )

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David W
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Post by David W » 25 Feb 2005 19:11

An excellent quality source.

Does it extend beyond June '42. Or back into 1941?

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Lupo Solitario
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Post by Lupo Solitario » 25 Feb 2005 19:16

ehh, no , sorry I got only some data about present tanks and sending hypothesis...
no data for 1941, too :cry:

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Xavier
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Post by Xavier » 25 Feb 2005 19:27

somewhat related:
the ones that didn't get through.........
Italian/German cargo ships lost enroute to Afrika in August 1942:
MS Monviso (5,322 BRT, lost 03.0,
SS Wachtfels (G, 8,647 BRT, lost 07.0,
SS Ogaden (4,533 BRT, lost 12.0,
MS Lerici (6,070 BRT, lost 15.0,
MS Nino Bixio (7,137 BRT, lost 17.0,
MS Rosolino Pilo (8,326 BRT, lost 18.0,
MT Pozarica (7,751 BRT, 21.0,
SS Dielpi (1,527 BRT, lost 27.0,
SS Istria (5,416 BRT, lost 27.0,
MS Manfredo Camperio (5,463 BRT, lost 27.0,
SS Paolina (G, 5,894 BRT, lost 27.0,
ST Sanandrea (5,077 BRT, lost 30.0.

from: http://www.feldgrau.net/phpBB2/viewtopi ... highlight= info courtesy of Mark E Horan

does anyone have info about the amount and types ofr armour lost while en route to north africa?

best regards

Xavier
Instandsetzungtruppfuhrer

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David W
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Post by David W » 25 Feb 2005 23:22

Sorry Lupo, which two cases were L6 please?

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Lupo Solitario
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Post by Lupo Solitario » 26 Feb 2005 13:31

May 30: 60 italian tanks of which 58 L6
June 12: 27 italian tanks. all L6

bye

Montys Foxhounds
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Post by Montys Foxhounds » 03 Mar 2005 19:08

[quote="Xavier"]somewhat related:
the ones that didn't get through.........
Italian/German cargo ships lost enroute to Afrika in August 1942:
MS Monviso (5,322 BRT, lost 03.0,
SS Wachtfels (G, 8,647 BRT, lost 07.0,
SS Ogaden (4,533 BRT, lost 12.0,
MS Lerici (6,070 BRT, lost 15.0,
MS Nino Bixio (7,137 BRT, lost 17.0,


Not true about the Nino Bixio, this was attacked 17th August 1942 enroute to Italy while carrying British PoWs and about 300 were lost. It was attacked by the British sub Turbulant, and was beached on the island of Navarino. This ship caused an uproar when it sailed to New Zealand in the mid 70`s because of the number of NZs who died on it.

MF

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Post by nmao » 25 Mar 2005 02:49

Hello!
I tought this information i posted on feldgrau might be of some use:
------------------------------------------

I II III IV VI klBef grBef Unit Date
25 45 61 17 0 3 4 ---PzR 5 ----10-11 mar 1941
0 0 10 3 0 0 0 ---PzR 5 ---8-10 mar 1941 [burned in italy]
4 0 0 0 0 0 0 ---PzJagAbt 605 ---18-21 mar 1941
25 0 0 0 0 0 0 ---PzR 5 ---10 may 1941
0 45 71 20 0 4 6 ---PzR8 ---25 apr - 6 may 1941
0 0 10 3 0 0 0 ---PzR 5 ---10-14 apr 1941
0 0 15 5 0 0 0 ---PzR 5 ---04 Jun 1941 [assignment dates, arrived july-august]
0 4 6 0 0 0 0 ---PzR 5 & 8 ---30 Jun 1941 [assignment dates, arrived july-august]
0 0 4 0 0 0 0 ---PzR 5 & 8 ---10 Jul 1941 [assignment dates, arrived july-august]
0 5 17 0 0 0 0 ---3./PzR8 ---19 dec 1941 [at Bengazi]
0 6 17 0 0 0 0 ---7./PzR8 ---19 dec 1941
0 5 17 0 0 0 0 ---3./PzR 5 ---19 dec 1941 [sunk]
0 6 17 0 0 0 0 ---7./PzR 5 ---19 dec 1941 [sunk]
0 20 211 49 0 0 4 ---PzR 5 & 8 ---jan-may 1942
0 10 34 0 0 0 0 ---3.&7./PzR 5 ---jan-may 1942
0 0 0 9 0 0 0 ---PzR 5 & 8 ---may 1942
0 0 0 1 0 0 0 ---PzR 5 & 8 ---Jun 1942 [DATE AMENDED]
0 0 76 0 0 0 0 ---PzR 5 & 8 ---jul-aug 1942
0 0 0 20 0 0 0 ---PzR 5 & 8 ---jul-aug 1942
0 0 0 11 0 0 0 ---PzR 5 ---late dec 1942 [ignore, should be counted in the nov42-may43 total, its just a remark to say that they´re pz IVlg]
0 0 0 11 0 0 0 ---PzR 8 ---late dec 1942 [ignore, should be counted in the nov42-may43 total, its just a remark to say that they´re pz IVlg]
0 0 6 0 0 0 0 ---PzAbt 190 ---8 Nov 1942 [DATE AMENDED] [at Bengazi]
0 7 46 10 0 0 2 ---PzAbt 190 ---12-22 nov 1942 [at Bizerte]
0 0 25 0 20 0 0 ---sPzAbt 501 ---23 nov 1942 - 24 jan 1943 [at Bizerte and Tunis (a few)]
0 0 19 0 11 0 0 ---sPzAbt 504 ---12 mar - 16 apr 1943 [at Tunis and Bizerte]
0 19 89 8 0 0 6 ---PzR 7 ---27 nov - 5 dec 1942 [at Tunis]
0 2 16 12 0 0 3 ---PzR 7 ---3 dec 1942 [sunk]
0 0 2 8 0 0 0 ---3./PzR HG ---early apr 1943 [at Tunis? and/or Bizerte?]
0 0 31 97 0 0 0 ---Afrika ---1 nov 1942 - 1 may 1943 [at ??]
0 0 16 28 0 0 0 ---Afrika ---1 nov 1942 - 1 may 1943 [sunk]
0 0 21 17 0 0 0 ---PzAbtGrun ---15 Jan 1943 [newly created in Tunisia, later becomes I/5 PzR]

54 174 837 329 31 7 25 TOTAL=1435 [no double count for the december 42 shippment]

Arrival dates at Tripoli unless it says so (maybe some in summer 42 really arrived at Tobruk, Bengazi but i don´t know).
PzAbt Grun was formed from replacement panzers that i subtracted from the total sent 1nov42-1may43. [See Panzertruppen 2, page 49]

About the lg & kz versions...i don´t have very good data but my current estimate is:
658 IIIkz, 126 IIIlg, 138 III75, 299 IVkz, 63 IVlg
The problem is that some reports don´t specify wich version, and Jentz is not very complete either.
When i have more solid more solid info i will post it.

I only have a total of 135 sunk/lost before arrival in africa, maybe Jentz forgot others...

This table was compiled from data in Panzertruppen 1&2 and Tank Combat in North Africa, both from Thomas Jentz.

bye

-Nuno

Ps:feel free to comment/criticize/expand/etc

nmao
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Italian tanks

Post by nmao » 31 Mar 2005 15:54

A copy of my post on feldgrau...

--------------------------------------------

Let me share the info i have...
This information is not mine, it was given to me by Arturo Lorioli and the information is taken (i think) from the Italian Official History; i really don´t know how accurate it is. Some of the dates at least, seem suspect.

----
Shipping list of all the tanks the italians sent to north Africa

Only of the Medium Tanks.
Notes : the number of tanks is the *total* number of tanks allocated to each bn, including replacements recieved during the campaign and including also the tanks lost in transit.

1st Bn/32nd Rgt (35 to 37 x M11/39 - July 1940)
2nd Bn/32nd Rgt (35 to 37 x M11/39 - July 1940)
3rd Bn/4th Rgt (37 x M13/40 - November 7th 1940)
4th Bn/31st Rgt - later 133rd Rgt (59 x M13/40 and M14/41 - formed in Africa on August 25th 1941)
5th Bn/32nd Rgt (37 x M13/40 - January 11th 1941)
6th Bn/33rd Rgt - later 32nd Rgt (47 x M13/40 - January 1941)
7th Bn/32nd Rgt - later 132nd Rgt (50 x M13/40 - March 11th 1942)
8th Bn/32nd Rgt - later 132nd Rgt (67 x M13/40 - June 22nd 1941)
9th Bn/3rd Rgt - later 132nd Rgt (90 x M13/40 - October 1941)
10th Bn/133rd Rgt - later 132nd Rgt (52 x M13/40 and 38 x M14/41 - January 22nd 1942)
11th Bn/4th Rgt - later 133rd Rgt then 101st Motor Infantry Div."Trieste"
(26 x M13/40 and 66 x M14/41 - formed in Africa on April 30th 11th 1941 from the remnants of the 8th Bn)
12th Bn/133rd Rgt - (lost all its 52 x M14/42 in transit - January 23rd
1942. Rebuilt in Africa with 52 x M14/41 on May 24th 1941)
13th Bn/31st Rgt - later 133rd Rgt - later 132nd Rgt (75 x M14/41 - ???
August 1942???)
14th Bn/31st Rgt (60 x M14/41 - August 31st 1942)
15th Bn/1st Rgt - later 31st Rgt (40 x M14/41 and some Sem. M41 75L18 -
December 15th 1942)
16th Bn/32nd Rgt (one company only, with some Semoventi too - date???)
17th Bn/32nd Rgt (45 x M14/41 and 1 x Semovente - Late 1942)
21st Bn/4th Rgt (36 x M13/40 - formed in Africa with crews from the 21st Light Tanks Bn on January 1941)
51st Bn/31st Rgt - later 133rd Rgt (80 x M14/41 - formed in Africa from
crews of the 2nd and 4th Bn - August 25th 1941)
52nd Bn/no Regimental affiliation (9 x M tanks - formed in Africa from
miscellaneous armoured elements - October 22nd 1941)

----

Please criticize/ammend/etc.

bye

-Nuno

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Urmel
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Re: Italian tanks

Post by Urmel » 06 Mar 2013 13:19

nmao wrote: 12th Bn/133rd Rgt - (lost all its 52 x M14/42 in transit - January 23rd
1942. Rebuilt in Africa with 52 x M14/41 on May 24th 1941)
--

Please criticize/ammend/etc.

bye

-Nuno
Nuno

The date can't be correct. Only the large liner Victoria was lost in convoy operation T.18 to aerial torpedoes. I am certain she did not carry tanks, only troops and some material.

It is however possible that the 52 M tanks were lost when Mn Fabio Filzi and Carlo del Greco were sunk off Taranto by HM/Sub Upright on Dec 13 during the preparation for failed operation M.41.

http://www.wrecksite.eu/wreck.aspx?98005

Google Books
The enemy had superiority in numbers, his tanks were more heavily armoured, they had larger calibre guns with nearly twice the effective range of ours, and their telescopes were superior. 5 RTR 19/11/41

The CRUSADER Project - The Winter Battle 1941/42

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Urmel
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Re: Replacement Panzers in North Afrika

Post by Urmel » 07 Mar 2013 12:33

The enemy had superiority in numbers, his tanks were more heavily armoured, they had larger calibre guns with nearly twice the effective range of ours, and their telescopes were superior. 5 RTR 19/11/41

The CRUSADER Project - The Winter Battle 1941/42

Dili
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Re: Replacement Panzers in North Afrika

Post by Dili » 07 Mar 2013 13:07

Fantastic both of you. Thanks.

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