Malta Garrison 1942

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Davide Pastore
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#16

Post by Davide Pastore » 06 Dec 2005, 23:20

edward_n_kelly wrote: Is there any information (probably in Italian) on these earlier studies ?
There is a book dedicated to the plans, "Operazione C3" by Mariano Gabriele. In Italian, of course.

I've collected a good amount of material on the topic. I was actually wondering about the best way to post it here, and I'll done it soon (trying also to answer in a satisfaying way to your questions). However the material is in a somewhat "raw" form, and shaping it into a presentable and comprehensible final product will take a few days.

Davide

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edward_n_kelly
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#17

Post by edward_n_kelly » 07 Dec 2005, 09:07

Davide Pastore wrote:
edward_n_kelly wrote: Is there any information (probably in Italian) on these earlier studies ?
There is a book dedicated to the plans, "Operazione C3" by Mariano Gabriele. In Italian, of course.

I've collected a good amount of material on the topic. I was actually wondering about the best way to post it here, and I'll done it soon (trying also to answer in a satisfaying way to your questions). However the material is in a somewhat "raw" form, and shaping it into a presentable and comprehensible final product will take a few days.

Davide
I look forward to it Davide - I am sure it will broaden my knowledge of the Italian plans for the elimination of Malta (sadly lacking on my part).

Edward


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Map of Malta

#18

Post by veteran5464 » 10 Jun 2007, 19:51

Would anyone happen to know how to get a map of Malta showing the defense lines and such?? concerning Operation Herkules??

Jon G.
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#19

Post by Jon G. » 10 Jun 2007, 21:41

From this thread where I've linked to a big map collection:

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=119463

...this map is available from the Perry-Castañeda Library, which should be in your neighbourhood :)

http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/ams/nort ... ni33-2.jpg

Unfortunately the map is rather small (or perhaps it's Malta which is too small), but it is at least a start.

Edit: removed image and inserted link to map instead.

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JeffreyF
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#20

Post by JeffreyF » 10 Jun 2007, 23:04

I'm not sure if Mr. Kelley ever saw them or cares anymore but some of the Italian information can be found in the newgroup threads listed in this previous thread. http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=55655
Which appears to have originated from Mr. Pastore unless my headache is turning into delusions. :)

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#21

Post by Indianapolis » 11 Jun 2007, 02:22

You might find something useful about the Malta garrison here too:

http://fow.flamesofwar.com/viewtopic.php?t=36419


Hope to see more info on this topic!

Indianapolis

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#22

Post by PetrOsipov » 24 Jul 2007, 13:12

A very interesting thread, covering most things I needed for my diorama. However, I have got one more question: Which types of vehicles were also in use by the troops in Malta?
So far, I am quite sure about Matilda II and Vickers Mk. VIc, as well as the guns listed above. But, which other vehicles were there in summer 42? I need to fill a corner of a diorama with some vehicle ;)
Any universal carriers? Armoured cars? Which models of trucks and cars? Any suggestions of what can be found around a crash-landed Bristol Beaufort Mk 1 which belly-landed, skidded off the runway and is now being pulled off by a Matilda II?

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#23

Post by Davide Pastore » 01 Mar 2008, 10:54

Sorry for the long delay in my answer!
PetrOsipov wrote:Which types of vehicles were also in use by the troops in Malta?
The tank squadron that would have faced C3 (the operation most unwary observers call 'Herkules' :x or, worse still, 'Hercules' :x :x ) was organized this way (as of mid-1942):

- Troop: one Light Tank Mk VI plus two Light Tank Mk VIC
- Troop: three A9 / Cruiser Tank Mk I
- Troop: three A13 Mk II / Cruiser Tank Mk IVA
- Troop: three Matilda Mk III / A12 / Infantry Tank Mk IIA*
- Reserve: one A9 / Cruiser Tank Mk I plus one Matilda Mk III / A12 / Infantry Tank Mk IIA*
Total of 14 tanks.

Apparently the Matilda troop was numbered as 4th, so I believe the other troops were numbered 1st, 2nd and 3rd in the order shown above.
PetrOsipov wrote:Any universal carriers?
I don't know for sure but I believe there were some.
PetrOsipov wrote:Armoured cars?
None.

However, sources list also four 'mobile' ATG (two 3-pr plus two 47/32, the latter obviously taken in North Africa) in addition to 20 'normal' ATG. It is unclear if 'mobile' refers to the guns that could be towed (meaning there was a serious scarcity of tractors indeed!) or to a 'portee' gun carried onboard some kind of vehicle (an ad hoc adaptation often seen in North Africa in a number of variations). I suspect the latter.
PetrOsipov wrote:Any suggestions of what can be found around a crash-landed Bristol Beaufort Mk 1 which belly-landed, skidded off the runway and is now being pulled off by a Matilda II?
Pieces of metal? :D

BTW it seems the Matildas (Mark III, not II, although they are identical from the exterior) spent most of the time towing aicrafts. The Cruisers were briefly employed in the same role but proved unsuited.

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Re: Malta Garrison 1942

#24

Post by phylo_roadking » 02 Mar 2008, 22:52

Davide, it might also be worth considering what if any units were in transit to the Middle East around then by any route, or what units were in the Canal Zone, or what was available in the general reserve. ULTRA would give the British warning of any operation, and if any of the German contribution was mustered in or launched from Occupied France they would be free to act on the information. That was Churchill's main and overriding concern - that they not betray the existence of ULTRA by using data that could ONLY have come from signals interception...so they only acted on information that could be "corroborated" by "conventional" intelligence sources such as friendly informants/agents etc. in occupied territories.

Also, given exactly how important Malta was to the war - as a base for aerial and submarine interdiction of Italian coastal traffic and sea traffic to Libya, AND by being ITSELF a cover for the ULTRA data on Axis ops in the Med that could be explained away by being "aerial recce from Malta"...it's not impossible that Churchill would decide to gamble the secret on reinforcing Malta...perhaps by "accidently" forcing a convoy through the Med a few days in advance of the C3 launch date, or perhaps an airlift of the two companies of commandos that had been returned to the General Reserve in the Middle East in the summer of 1941 if they could be reassembled, perhaps with the addition of a third commando company, the one that had ben sent back to Cyprus as part of the garrison there.

Remember, given the failure of Crete 14 months earlier as "the best opportunity to kill parachutists" and Churchill's ego problem with failures I think he'd move heaven and earth to try that again. :wink: Look how many times he tried the "soft underbelly of Europe" to silence the critics of Gallipoli - Greece 1941, Crete, the Aegean in 1943 and Sicily/Italy. He certainly still would had something to prove over Crete as late as 1942, that it was not any interference of his that caused the debacle there.

So, when considering C3 as a WI, i would very much hesitate to stay with the historical garrison as of July 1942. That would be the absolute minimum present, but there would more probably be an enlarged and "recently arrived" Commonwealth complement there, purely "in transit" of course....

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Davide Pastore
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Re: Malta Garrison 1942

#25

Post by Davide Pastore » 03 Mar 2008, 11:47

phylo_roadking wrote:the two companies of commandos that had been returned to the General Reserve in the Middle East in the summer of 1941 if they could be reassembled, perhaps with the addition of a third commando company, the one that had ben sent back to Cyprus as part of the garrison there.
Can you give more details of these units?

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Re: Malta Garrison 1942

#26

Post by phylo_roadking » 03 Mar 2008, 14:55

Davide, I'll do that next time I go to my mum's her garage is full of my spare shelfstock boxed up when it hasn't been in use for a while. But in the meantime IIRC there were four companies of commandos in the Middle East in early 1941; one was sent for a time to Cyprus to beef up the garrison there, brought back to Egypt, then later on sent BACK to Cyprus. Layforce on Crete at least was comprised of at least one (IIRC two?) of the others. After Crete therefore, and the fourth company sent to Cyprus again, the rest of the Commado was mustered out into General Reserve in the Canal Zone...whence more than a few were combed out by David Stirling into the SAS.

IIRC in 1941, before the dispersal, one company was also involved in a river crossing action in support of Australian units in the campaign in Vichy Syria.

There's a thought....the SAS..... :wink:

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Re: Malta Garrison 1942

#27

Post by Bronsky » 03 Mar 2008, 19:25

phylo_roadking wrote:ULTRA would give the British warning of any operation, and if any of the German contribution was mustered in or launched from Occupied France they would be free to act on the information.
Vichy France wasn't occupied until November 1942. Why should the Germans muster their Malta invasion force in northern France?

A far more likely candidate would be Italy.

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Re: Malta Garrison 1942

#28

Post by phylo_roadking » 03 Mar 2008, 20:52

Occupied France
With Barabarossa under way, they'd be mustering air tactical and transport units from all over. Something like the reassignment of what air assests could be spared, say from Occupied France TO Italy...would be monitored by "live" intelligence assets :wink: - people listening to gossiping drunk pilots and groundcrew in French cafes complaining about the heat and the Italian food to come, complaing about turning in uniforms for tropical issue, that sort of thing. The Allies usually ONLY risked going on ULTRA intel IF their success could be explained away as an intelligence success from "live" sources - such as the Catalina story invented to cover the interception of traffic from the Bismark IIRC the recce Catalina flight was just to corroborate the intercepts.

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Re: Malta Garrison 1942

#29

Post by Davide Pastore » 03 Mar 2008, 21:17

Be assured that, if C3 had received the green light, the British wouldn't have needed Ultra to guess an invasion was approaching.

Of course, the obvious corollary is: "and they couldn't do anything to prevent it".

Now explain me I'm wrong :wink:

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Re: Malta Garrison 1942

#30

Post by phylo_roadking » 03 Mar 2008, 22:16

No, they couldn't prevent the invasion - but they could do more and quicker to reinforce the island's garrison than was attempted in Crete. The garrison wouldn't be the exhausted Anzacs from Greece with about a quarter of their automatic weapons, the garrison had had years to prepare for invasion in some form, not three weeks. I'm assuming Malta by 1942 was like Tobruk earlier in the year when British forces trudged BACK from Cyrenaica - lots of empty trenches and emplacements, all built "against the day" of various invasion scares LOL

What I'm saying is that enough warning - which they would have - would allow them to ram reinforcements thru in SOME form to Malta. It's still going to come down to a fight ON the island okay, but not short of automatic weapons or specialist troops, and hopefully NOT making the same c@ck-ups over counterattacks, non-deployment of reinforcements and reserves, unanchored flanks etc. that the Freyberg's officers made.

The decision on whether or not to reinforce the garrison enough as to make a proper defence would depend on

1/ was Malta worth deploying forces to that could be lost? Did ULTRA provide enough useful data on Axis Mediterranean ops that required the the cover story of "aerial recce from Malta? Did air and submarine assets from Malta do enough damage to Axis naval tranpsort?

2/ If the answer was yes - COULD reinforcements be sent without betraying the existence of ULTRA? (as described)

3/ What was available - and where - that could be sent?

4/ What further mechanised assets could be sent? And HOW could they be sent?

5/ Could enough damage be caused to the attacking airborne forces to force their capitualation? Could they be prevented from extending their bridgeheads, or bringing in further reinforcements?

Remember - Crete was not only a series of failures on the part of the defenders, but ALSO Ringel taking over command of the operation and putting reinforcements on the ground by Ju52 at Maleme even when the airfield was still under fire. If he hadnt taken that decision, the operation was within a few hours of being a failure from the Axis side.

I'd say - a Crete replay without the mistakes :wink: To win, the Axis forces would simply have to slog it out and overpower the defenders who were in a much better and more matured set of real defences than on Crete. They would have to put MORE on the ground in the first wave than on Crete, so as not to rely as much on the arrival of later waves. They'd have to minimise the losses and disruption on landing, both in numbers and to the chain of command of whole units. SOMEHOW they'll need to pick better, clearer dropping zones for the parachute elements than on Crete...in a landscape with a higher percentage of stone walls enclosing smaller fields! More broken ankles, legs and backs :( AND defensive-wise - think Bocage minus the hedges; dry stone walls, banked ditches and sunken lanes in a landscape that looks like the squares on a chessboard. They'll have to have learned the lesson of jumping with weapons - I know they were training but it would have to be rolled out to everyone. AND make sure they landed enough rations and especially water - Malta is IIRC perenially short of water in high summer, more so than Crete - with the first wave, or have a far better system of air drops and way of ground control in place than laying out coloured panels. Do all those and the LW will have removed the mistakes THEY made on Crete.

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