Air combats during Operation Torch

maxs75 · Post by **maxs75** » 11 Apr 2006 22:33

David,
thank you for the answer. You've put so many info at once that I need time to read everything and answer properly.
You probably are right regarding french units for Husky. The units in Morocco were too far, and most probably more in training than operational.
I/3 was possibly converting from D.520 to Spit, and so not operational yet.

About I/33 and II/33, it seems that the first P-38/F-4 were operational by july 1943:
http://www.er133belfort.free.fr/fra/trad/sal33.php (in french)

Max

maxs75 · Post by **maxs75** » 22 Apr 2006 15:21

David Lehmann wrote:
Concerning the MAAF I have the enclosed scan, but it is only for August 1944 and not July 1943. It is from the magazine "Le Fana de l'Aviation" - special issue n°15 (July 2001). With (F) are indicated where the French units are.

Nonetheless, if I use what I have found : I have always tried to indicate the date when the unit is really operational (it was sometimes formed/created months before).

If we take the date of July 1943 what could be really available in this listing ?

GB I/25 "Tunisie"
GB II/23 "Guyenne"
--> Halifax heavy groups, not used in the Mediterranean area I think

GBM I/22 : already operationnal in April 1943 but only with the LeO.451s. In July 1943 the unit is under transformation on B-26s.

GC II/5 "Lafayette" : ok
GC II/7 "Nice" : ok
GR I/33 "Belfort" : ok
GR II/33 "Savoie" : ok

Perhaps also Fleet Air Arms units ???

David,
I/25 and II/23 converted to Halifax only in mid 1944, after invasion of Italy. AFAIK they were used in north africa in the first part of 1943 (probably with LeO 451).
Possibly only II/5, II/7 and II/33 saw some combat. I've already told about I/33.
Maybe naval squadrons 7E with hydroplanes and 1E with Wellington were part of Coastal AF, but I don't know their bases.

Re. august 1944, do you have any idea what was Force 163?
Finally, I think that 34 EB was ready only later. According to your list and with other sources, GBM I/32, II/52 and II/63 were ready only in august-september 1944.

Best
Max

David Lehmann · Post by **David Lehmann** » 22 Apr 2006 16:28

Hello,

AFAIK, Force 163 was in fact a *nickname* given by the HQ preparing operation Anvil/Dragoon to the US 7th Army.

Regards,

David

maxs75 · Post by **maxs75** » 24 Apr 2006 19:22

Thanks David,
I was looking for Force 163 through the air units lists! I never could have found it.

Regarding french units, I've found the oob of NWAAF for op. Husky. It seems that only II/5 and II/7 (P-40 and Spit respectively) are listed under the Bone sector command. (part of NACAF).
squadron I/3 with Spit is listed under NATC, toghether with 154 FS with P-39, 16 and 122 with A-20 and 20th FG with P-38 (a note says ETA august, but AFAIK it went to UK instead).
Under Tac. Bomb. F. 8 groupement is listed with LeO 451. Under 211 RAF group is "Bretagne" with Blenheim, but I can't read it's footnote.

I think that it's all.

Max

Bronsky · Post by **Bronsky** » 27 Nov 2006 19:56

Looking at it from the American perspective, as a comparison to the Bulgarian point of view. The figures for aircraft sent and aircraft lost only count bombers, not escort fighters.

dibo wrote:The first combat engagement was on 10.12.1943. The American 15th Air Army raided Sofia with 50-60 B-24s and 60 P-38s. The Royal Bulgarian Air Force engaged with 17 Me-109s from 3/6 and 24 De-520s. The 2/6 was late to respond and had a meagre result - 1 suspected bomber claim and 1 De-520 lost.

24 November, Sofia Marshaling Yard, visual bombing, 17 bombers dispatched and 2 lost.
10 December, Sofia Marshaling Yard, visual bombing, 31 bombers dispatched and 0 lost.

dibo wrote:Second combat engagement - 20.12.1943. This time 50 B-24 and 50-60 P-38 against 16 Me-109s and 24 De-520s. This time 2/6 was more successful - 1 bomber was downed, 1 was heavily damaged and 3 P-38 were downed. 1 De-520 was damaged. 3/6 downed 3 P-38s and 2 B-24s and heavily damaged 4 B-24s and 1 P-38s, losing 2 Me-109s (one as a result of ramming a B-24).A number of ME-109 were damaged.

12 December, Sofia Marshaling Yard, visual bombing, 37 bombers dispatched and 1 lost.

dibo wrote:Third combat engagement - 10.01.1944. 180 B-17 and B-24 and 100 P-38 were intercepted over Sofia by 16 Me-109s from 3/6, 23 De-520s from 2/6, 30 German Bf-109s and unknown number of DE-520s from 1/6 and 4/6. 2/6 downed 6 bombers and damaged a P-38 and lost 2 De-520s. 4/6 lost 1 De-520 and downed a bomber. 3/6 downed three P-38 and damaged several others without own losses. The Germans lost 4 Me-109. Their victoires are unknown.

10 January, Sofia, 142 bombers dispatched, 1 lost.

Later, Vrattso and Dinstservovene were hit 24 January (40+1 aircraft sent, none lost). 205 Squadron RAF staged numerous night raids, the next dailight raid was 29 March.

dibo · Post by **dibo** » 28 Nov 2006 08:11

Bronsky wrote:Looking at it from the American perspective, as a comparison to the Bulgarian point of view. The figures for aircraft sent and aircraft lost only count bombers, not escort fighters.

dibo wrote:The first combat engagement was on 10.12.1943. The American 15th Air Army raided Sofia with 50-60 B-24s and 60 P-38s. The Royal Bulgarian Air Force engaged with 17 Me-109s from 3/6 and 24 De-520s. The 2/6 was late to respond and had a meagre result - 1 suspected bomber claim and 1 De-520 lost.
24 November, Sofia Marshaling Yard, visual bombing, 17 bombers dispatched and 2 lost.
10 December, Sofia Marshaling Yard, visual bombing, 31 bombers dispatched and 0 lost.

dibo wrote:Second combat engagement - 20.12.1943. This time 50 B-24 and 50-60 P-38 against 16 Me-109s and 24 De-520s. This time 2/6 was more successful - 1 bomber was downed, 1 was heavily damaged and 3 P-38 were downed. 1 De-520 was damaged. 3/6 downed 3 P-38s and 2 B-24s and heavily damaged 4 B-24s and 1 P-38s, losing 2 Me-109s (one as a result of ramming a B-24).A number of ME-109 were damaged.
12 December, Sofia Marshaling Yard, visual bombing, 37 bombers dispatched and 1 lost.

dibo wrote:Third combat engagement - 10.01.1944. 180 B-17 and B-24 and 100 P-38 were intercepted over Sofia by 16 Me-109s from 3/6, 23 De-520s from 2/6, 30 German Bf-109s and unknown number of DE-520s from 1/6 and 4/6. 2/6 downed 6 bombers and damaged a P-38 and lost 2 De-520s. 4/6 lost 1 De-520 and downed a bomber. 3/6 downed three P-38 and damaged several others without own losses. The Germans lost 4 Me-109. Their victoires are unknown.
10 January, Sofia, 142 bombers dispatched, 1 lost.

Later, Vrattso and Dinstservovene were hit 24 January (40+1 aircraft sent, none lost). 205 Squadron RAF staged numerous night raids, the next dailight raid was 29 March.

What's the source?!...Even the BBC broadcasts during the war acknowledged that more Allied Bombers were lost....

Vrattso must be Vratza. Dinstservovene?!

Bronsky · Post by **Bronsky** » 28 Nov 2006 08:41

My source: the 1944 spreadsheet in
Richard G. Davis, The Bomber Offensive: A Statistical History, unpublished manuscript and bomber mission database, c.a. 1999
Davis' sources are the mission reports filed by the U.S. units in U.S. National Archives. For 24 January 1944 raid, for example, it references: Fifteenth Air Summary of Operations, Reels A6433 - A6534; 670.308-4.

Regarding city's names, I've found a few instances of misspelling. This is a common occurrence when copying foreign names, so they might have been misspelled in the original archival document. Thanks for the correction, I copied/pasted the names so all I can say about Dinstservovene is that this is what appears in the database, I have no idea where that is

By the way, the 1 August 1943 raid on Ploesti is listed as having lost 54, IIRC.

dibo · Post by **dibo** » 28 Nov 2006 09:15

Bronsky wrote:My source: the 1944 spreadsheet in
Richard G. Davis, The Bomber Offensive: A Statistical History, unpublished manuscript and bomber mission database, c.a. 1999
Davis' sources are the mission reports filed by the U.S. units in U.S. National Archives. For 24 January 1944 raid, for example, it references: Fifteenth Air Summary of Operations, Reels A6433 - A6534; 670.308-4.

Regarding city's names, I've found a few instances of misspelling. This is a common occurrence when copying foreign names, so they might have been misspelled in the original archival document. Thanks for the correction, I copied/pasted the names so all I can say about Dinstservovene is that this is what appears in the database, I have no idea where that is

By the way, the 1 August 1943 raid on Ploesti is listed as having lost 54, IIRC.

As I suspected. Thanks.

Jon G. · Post by **Jon G.** » 28 Nov 2006 09:31

Bronsky wrote:... 205 Squadron RAF staged numerous night raids, the next dailight raid was 29 March.

Surely you mean the 205 Group, a formation far larger than a squadron. Here's an OOB.

Bronsky · Post by **Bronsky** » 28 Nov 2006 15:52

Yes, my mistake, typed too fast.

Polynike · Post by **Polynike** » 18 Dec 2006 10:25

which of these units were based at Gibraltar?

thanks

Pachy · Post by **Pachy** » 20 Dec 2006 17:08

PT Dockyard wrote:Did the French use the D-520s against the Axis in Tunisia?

Hi,

Not really. They flew a couple patrols, without meeting with the enemy, but since the D.520's radio set was incompatible with Allied equipment, this was discontinued. French units who took part in the battle of Tunisia, other than the LeO units mentioned by David, were GC II/5 with P-40Fs and GC II/7 with Spitfires MkV in the closing days of the campaign. MB.174/175s were also operationally used at the time but I don't have much info about them.