Warsaw Pact attack 1985

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ChristopherPerrien
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Re: Warsaw Pact attack 1985

Post by ChristopherPerrien » 14 May 2013 15:18

Kingfish wrote:On a somewhat related note, can someone explain to me the rational for the dispersed nature of NATO's peacetime deployment?

I understand the need to safeguard against nucs and other WMD strikes, but why is it that (for example) the 12th Panzer division had a brigade deployed close to the border at Bad Kissingen, but a sister brigade at Koblenz over 200 klicks away?

Is it that I'm too wrapped up on the concept of "division" when in reality the brigades operated in a more autonomous arrangement?


So the Russkies couldn't nuke/ bomb/gas/ disrupt all our assembly areas and REFORGER sites, and equipment storage areas in a suprise attack against a small number of targets. :milsmile:

Also many of the troops of NATO's armed forces were of a reserved nature, so it would take weeks to assemble many units and the equipment issued from such sites. Having them near the border in large concentrations could have led to them being lost or overrun in the event of a quick Russian surprise ground attack, before those 2nd line units were "mobilized" and ready to roll.

Most US Divisons in Europe had one active over-strengthed or two partial Brigades ready to rock , bringing another brigade of a US Division up to combat strenght would have taken about 15-30 days. And the "3rd brigade", you were looking at 30-90 days.

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Kingfish
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Re: Warsaw Pact attack 1985

Post by Kingfish » 16 May 2013 18:40

Seems reasonable. So the campaign would have seen the front line brigades gradually falling back, adding newly mobilized units into the line as they do. Interestingly enough that is exactly how it is being played out in a wargame I am playing.
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ChristopherPerrien
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Re: Warsaw Pact attack 1985

Post by ChristopherPerrien » 16 May 2013 19:46

I suggest [url] http://www.boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/ ... in-europe/[url]

The OOB of that old war-game , is about as accurate as you can get for the mobilization schedule of NATO Ground force units circa early - mid 1980's. Sir John Hackett advised on this game , IIRC, and it jives with what I saw and know, being in the US Army in the mid-late 80's :milsmile:

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Kingfish
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Re: Warsaw Pact attack 1985

Post by Kingfish » 16 May 2013 20:53

I actually had that one way back in the day

I'm actually into this one at the moment:
http://www.hpssims.com/Pages/Products/ModBat/NGP85/ngp85.html

It has an add-on that covers the front from Bamberg to the Danish border
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Penn44
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Re: Warsaw Pact attack 1985

Post by Penn44 » 16 May 2013 23:52

Kingfish wrote:So the campaign would have seen the front line brigades gradually falling back ...


No. We would have actually aggressively attacked in some locations early in the war in order to develop the battlefield while employing a mobile defense (defend, attack, and defend) elsewhere. The image of NATO just absorbing the blows of the Warsaw Pact is a very wrong image.

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British Army of the Rhine (BAOR)

Post by aghart » 11 Aug 2013 21:59

1 (BR) Corps
1 (BR) Corps was by far the largest element of BAOR. HQ 1 (BR) Corps was based in Bielefeld. In war it would defend a sector of the North German Plain between 1 (GE) Corps and 1 (BE) Corps. The 1 BR Corps area on Transition to War extended, on its North-South axis, from a line just north of Hanover to just north of Kassel (the foot hills of the Harz Mountains). On its East-West axis, it extended from the Inner German Border to a line just westof Soest. (The Corps Forward Area was east of the Weser River and the Corps Rear Area west of it.) . NORTHAG itself was commanded by AFCENT. 1 (BR) Corps consisted of Corps Troops and four divisions. 1, 3 and 4 Armd Divisions (less 19 Inf Bde) were based in Germany. In time of war 1 (BR) Corps was reinforced by the UK based 2 Inf Div. Whilst this document does not seek to describe the envisaged battle plans a brief understanding can help explain the nature of the British orbat. 1 (BR) Corps was faced by the Soviet 3rd Shock Army as the first echelon force with 20th Guards Army as the second echelon. The plan to defeat the Soviets involved 4 elements. Firstly a screening force would delay the Soviet advance allowing the Armd Divisions to prepare their defensive positions and confirm the axes of advance. Secondly the main defensive battle was initially fought by 1 Armd Div (forward left i.e. north) and 4 Armd Div (forward right i.e. south).

4 Armd Div’s area was more woody and undulating –hence the presence of 19 Inf Bde in 4 Armd Div.

It was planned that 1 & 4 Armd Div’s efforts would force a Soviet echelon change.
Thirdly 3 Armd Div was to the rear and would strike to defeat the Soviet 2nd
Echelon and seize the initiative. Finally 2 Inf Div defended the Corps Rear Area with responsibility for the River Weser as a back stop.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/146180392/BAOR-July-1989-v-1
An in depth look at the ORBAT (order of Battle) of 1 (BR) corps in 1989 is on the link above

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Kingfish
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Re: Warsaw Pact attack 1985

Post by Kingfish » 12 Aug 2013 20:25

Interesting.

So this assumes 1st Guards Tank Army would be committed further south into CENTAG country.
If not, what was plan B for the Brits (and Belgians)?
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Robert Rojas
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RE: Warsaw Pact Attack - (Year 1985).

Post by Robert Rojas » 07 Jun 2018 05:39

Greetings to both brother Kingfish and the community as a whole. Howdy K.F.! Well sir, in light of your introductory posting of Tuesday - December 20, 2011 - 7:14am, old yours truly would like to temporarily digress from the initial wave of combat operations of your stated scenario and broach three questions for you. Primarily, in year 1985, what would be the purported CASUS BELLI offered by President Mikhail Gorbachev of the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics to his disparate Warsaw Pact Allies? Secondarily, in year 1985, as opposed to assaulting the N.A.T.O. alliance outright, have you considered testing the resolve of the N.A.T.O. alliance by assaulting a non member of the N.A.T.O. alliance such as Austria, Finland or Yugoslavia? Tertiarily, in year 1985, what ironclad guaranty do you have that the Republic of France, the United Kingdom and the United States of America will restrain themselves from employing weapons of mass destruction? After all, It might not be a terribly bad idea if there was a solid rationale for initiating THE GREAT PATRIOTIC WAR OF EUROPEAN LIBERATION since the very survival of civilization would depend upon it. it's just some sobering food for thought on a not so cavalier matter. Thank you in advance for entertaining my pointed inquiries. Well, that's my initial two cents or kopecks worth on this speculative topic into the great unknown - for now anyway. In any case, I would like to bid you a copacetic day from sea to shining sea.


Best Regards,
Uncle Bob :idea: :|
"It is well that war is so terrible, or we should grow too fond of it" - Robert E. Lee

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Robert Rojas
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RE: Warsaw Pact Attack - (Year 1985).

Post by Robert Rojas » 11 Jun 2018 00:54

Greetings to both brother Kingfish and the community as a whole. Howdy K.F.! Well sir, in continuing reference to your introductory posting of Tuesday - December 20, 2011 - 7:14am, apart from your classically stated military scenario for the invasion of the Federal Republic of Germany and parts beyond, old yours truly was also wondering what you might have in store for the remainder of Europe. More specifically, there is the southern flank of both the Warsaw Pact Alliance an the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics where the nations of Greece, Turkey and Yugoslavia might create unique difficulties all of their own. After all, of those three nation states, Greece has the potential of being an annoyance for Bulgaria and Turkey has the potential for being a very real threat for the Black Sea, Ukraine, Transcaucasia and the client State of Syria. Yugoslavia has always been estranged from the Soviet Block and the Moscow's inspired aggression in Europe will simply drive Belgrade right into the arms of the N.A.T.O. camp. Incidentally, prior to the outbreak of hostilities, should your readership ASSUME that the bulk of the Soviet Navy's Black Sea Fleet has relocated from its Black Sea naval bases to its Mediterranean Sea naval bases located in its client state of Syria? Finally, is there any provision for the potential involvement for the Island of Cyprus, the State of Israel and the Arab Republic of Egypt into an expanded war into the Eastern Mediterranean? Yes, the apparatchiks in the Kremlin have much to ponder! Once again, thank you in advance for entertaining my pointed inquiries. Well, that's my latest two cents or kopecks worth on this hypothetical topic of interest - for now anyway. In any case, I would like to bid you a copacetic day from sea to shining sea.


Best Regards,
Uncle Bob :idea: :|
"It is well that war is so terrible, or we should grow too fond of it" - Robert E. Lee

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