Cold War's first hot war

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South
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Cold War's first hot war

#1

Post by South » 17 Feb 2019, 00:19

https://www.scmp.com/week-asia/politics ... as-divided


Good afternoon all,

Per ...

Note the US colonels used a National Geographic Society map.

Note the mentioned "four power trusteeship".

Too tired to decipher UNTCOK.


~ Bob
eastern Virginia, USA

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wm
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Re: Cold War's first hot war

#2

Post by wm » 17 Feb 2019, 06:54

What about the Greek Civil War (1946) and its almost 160,000 victims? Seems quite hot.


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Re: Cold War's first hot war

#3

Post by Ironmachine » 17 Feb 2019, 09:01

UNTCOK = United Nations Temporary Commission on Korea

South
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Re: Cold War's first hot war

#4

Post by South » 17 Feb 2019, 09:19

Good morning Wm and Ironmachine,

...and concurrent with Greek fighting was the Turkey fighting. Of course the Middle Kingdom was just pleasant.

Was just using the article's title.

You're right, of course,.. the combat didn't stop after Potsdam.

......

Appreciate help with UN Temporary Commission on Korea.

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Robert Rojas
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RE: Cold War's First Hot War.

#5

Post by Robert Rojas » 17 Feb 2019, 15:53

Greetings to both brother South and the community as a whole. Howdy Bob! Well sir, in respect to your introductory posting of Saturday - February 16, 2019 - 2:19pm, it is and still remains the contention of old yours truly, that the ALLIED INTERVENTION in the Russian Civil War was the premier clash of arms in what would eventually come to be classically known as the COLD WAR. I know that I often harp on this subject, but to reiterate, the Anglo-American decision to confront the fledgling Soviet State on its home turf would earn the perpetual enmity of Vladimir Ulyanov's generation of Bolsheviks. And as I have asserted in the past, prior to the advent of Operation Barbarossa, the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics would classify the Capitalist United States of America as its principal enemy and not National Socialist Germany, Well, that's my not so initial two cents, pence or kopecks worth on this sojourn down repetition lane - for now anyway. As always, I would like to bid you an especially copacetic day over in your corner of the Old Dominion that is the Commonwealth of Virginia.


Best Regards,
Uncle Bob :idea: :|
"It is well that war is so terrible, or we should grow too fond of it" - Robert E. Lee

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Re: Cold War's first hot war

#6

Post by South » 17 Feb 2019, 16:30

Good morning Uncle Bob,

I'm now changing my view. Agree with you 100%.

Until now, I used as the start marker for the Cold War the Hamburg and Dresden bombings....so as to signal a message to Moscow.

As of now, Yes, the American Expeditionary Force-Siberia is the correct marker for the start of the Cold War.

When General William S. Graves was getting briefed by Secretary of the Army Newton D. Baker, believe in Kansas City, Missouri, Baker told Graves:
" Watch your step; you will be walking on eggs loaded with dynamite".

We mustn't forget Wilson's 6th of 14 points: "the evacuation of all Russian territory" by foreign forces. LMAO


~ Bob
eastern Virginia, USA

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wm
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Re: Cold War's first hot war

#7

Post by wm » 17 Feb 2019, 21:34

Dear Uncle :)
Please notice that Marxist/Leninist/Stalinist ideology declared all capitalist states to be impeccable enemies of socialism/communism.
Capitalists couldn't do anything about it because their hate was "genetically" based, i.e. driven by their class consciousness.
Class consciousness, like (according to the Nazis) Jewishness of the Jews, couldn't be modified. A capitalist couldn't transition to a worker like a dog couldn't transition to a cat.

You could accept a temporary alliance with a capitalist state as long as you were firmly aware that they were your enemies driven by their class consciousness.

And as it happened the US, Britain, Germany made the USSR great.
Magnitogorsk was designed by the Americans - it was a copy/paste of the Gary Works, Indiana.
All Soviet tractors were actually Ford Fordsons built in factories designed by the Americans.
The enormous Dnieper Hydroelectric Station was built by the Americans too,
Soviet cars were Fords.
Americans specialists helped to develop the Baku oil fields, etc.

See more here - How America Helped Build The Soviet Machine.

I would argue that the post-intervention "perpetual enmity of Vladimir Ulyanov's" was another piece of Soviet propaganda.

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RE: Cold War's First Hot War.

#8

Post by Robert Rojas » 17 Feb 2019, 23:22

Greetings to both citizen 'wm' and the community as a whole. Howdy 'wm'! Well sir, in respect to your polemic rich posting of Sunday - February 17, 2019 - 11:34am. whether you know it or not, you are clearly preaching to the choir when it comes to the nihilist character and nature of the THIRD INTERNATIONAL. And yes, it was old Vladimir Ulyanov who said it best: "THE CAPITALISTS WILL SELL US THE ROPE WITH WHICH WE WILL HANG THEM". And yes, the flood gates to the "Workers Paradise" swung wide open after the administration of President Franklin Delano Roosevelt established diplomatic relations with the Soviet Union on November 16, 1933. And as you more than rightly point out, it was the proven know how provided by American technocrats which made the Soviet Industrial Revolution possible. I believe you will also have to examine the activities of those financiers who made those technology transfers a profitable exercise in Yankee enterprise for all concerned. Now, It is not my intention to specifically single this individual out, but when the time avails itself, you might want to acquaint yourself with the life and times of the late Armand Hammer of Occidental Petroleum fame. If there was any one American capitalist who was quite engaged with the incremental development of the Soviet State, it was he. Undoubtedly, brother South will interject his two cents worth on the varied activities of this erstwhile fellow traveler and collaborationist. This might be something of a philosophical stretch, but the man was the rough equivalent of today's George Soros. Well, that's my latest two Yankee cents worth on this sojourn into the COLD WAR - for now anyway. As always, I would like to bid you an especially copacetic day over in your corner of the FREE, INDEPENDENT and EVER ENDURING LAND OF POLAND!

Best Regards,
Uncle Bob :idea: :|
Last edited by Robert Rojas on 18 Feb 2019, 21:42, edited 2 times in total.
"It is well that war is so terrible, or we should grow too fond of it" - Robert E. Lee

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Re: Cold War's First Hot War - (An Alternative Perspective).

#9

Post by Robert Rojas » 18 Feb 2019, 01:17

Greetings to both brother South and the community as a whole. Howdy Bob! Well sir, in respect to your posting of Sunday - February 17, 2019 - 6:30am, you really have old Uncle Bob's curiosity really going! Now, apart from the destruction of the municipalities of Hamburg and Dresden notwithstanding, if one desires to use the backdrop of the Second World War as the potential genesis of the Cold War's FIRST HOT WAR then I would have thought (RIGHTLY or WRONGLY) that the epic WARSAW RISING of August 01, 1944 through October 20, 1944 might be a flash point example where the General Secretary of the Soviet Union was obviously complicit with the systematic liquidation of the western orientated Armia Krajowa by premeditated OMMISSION. It was a patently clear message that MOSCOW was conveying to both London and Washington, D.C. that it would NOT be business as usual once the enemy of my enemy had been brought to heel. One could make a case, that the crushing of the Armia Krajowa was the FIRST HOT WAR to be fought between the EAST and the WEST despite the fact it was German Armed Forces doing Uncle Joe's convenient dirty work. Well, that's my latest two Yankee cents worth on this exercise when the COLD WAR's FIRST HOT WAR had its genesis - for now anyway. As always, I would like to bid you an especially copacetic day over in your corner of the Old Dominion that is the Commonwealth of Virginia.


Best Regards,
Uncle Bob :idea: :|
Last edited by Robert Rojas on 18 Feb 2019, 21:39, edited 2 times in total.
"It is well that war is so terrible, or we should grow too fond of it" - Robert E. Lee

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Re: Cold War's first hot war

#10

Post by South » 18 Feb 2019, 01:31

Good afternoon Wm and Uncle Bob,

Only 1 pfennig and 1 Chinese coin with a square punched out of the center so as to carry on a string - or perhaps a hangman's rope......

AND:

Deruloft was a joint Soviet - German airline starting 1922 on the Konigsberg-Moscow route. Fokker F IIIs used; not of Malay states manufacture

The flying machine Kalinin K5 was a Pratt and Whitney Hornet.

Plus much et cetra.

AND:

Trading houses do wonders for economic development without the burdensome R&D costs of goods and services. We can therefore list:
AMTORG in New York City
AMCOS in London

Dr Armand Hammer, M.D., so the story goes, was asked by someone how to get rich like Dr Hammer was. Tavarish Hammer replied:
"Actually there's nothing to it. You merely wait for a revolution in Russia. Then you pack all your warm clothes and go there. Once you arrive you start making the rounds of the government bureaus that are concerned with trade, with buying and selling. There probably won't be more than two or three hundred of them..."
Quote from "HAMMER by ARMAND HAMMER with Neil Lyndon", 1987, ISBN: 0-399-13275-9, pg 150

As much as Armand Hammer was a "red diaper baby". Julius, his medical doctor father, was also someone who believed in the gold cobblestone streets of workers paradises. There was a sliver of redeeming social grace to Armand.....let me reword that......redeeming POLITICAL grace. He served as an emissary for President Nixon as a key contact with the Moscow establishment.

Plus, much et cetra.


~ Bob
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Re: Cold War's first hot war

#11

Post by South » 18 Feb 2019, 01:41

Good afternoon Uncle Bob,

Another Third Partition of Poland was of little concern to FDR if it happened.

The 2 themes governing FDR's prosecuting the war:
1. No Germany dominating the European landmass and outperforming the UK.
2. No Soviet Union to be an existential threat to the US.

The firebombings told the Soviets that Moscow was only a short flight eastward.

My guess only; pure conjecture:
FDR & Co + add his Brain Trust, had no care about the Warsaw uprising. 1% of Weimar Germany's population produced 29% of Weimar's Noble Laureates. This translates to downstream politico-economic competition. Must stop now.

Addendum: Yes, buffer states needed for political stabily but can't develop this here. Plus, much is current events.

~ Bob
eastern Virginia, USA

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Xavier
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Re: Cold War's first hot war

#12

Post by Xavier » 18 Feb 2019, 18:51

i might bring to your consideration the spanish civil war, ... the real power behind the republic, was as we all know, the soviet union, and on the nationalists side, germany and fascist italy..
for the former cold war, let s just substitute one empire with another (germany and the united states.)

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RE: Cold War's First Hot War.

#13

Post by Robert Rojas » 18 Feb 2019, 20:51

Greetings to both citizen Xavier and the community as a whole. Howdy Xavier! Well sir, in deference to your point OR points-of-view as articulated in your posting of Monday - February 18, 2019 - 8:51am, old yours truly is of the school of thought that the Spanish Civil War was the FIRST HOT WAR between the ANTI-COMINTERN and the THIRD INTERNATIONAL. Ostensibly, this was a clash of supremacy among totalitarian ideologies and NOT an outright confrontation between SOCIAL DEMOCRACY and the THIRD INTERNATIONAL. So, in that respect, I must categorically reject your spurious substitution of National Socialist Germany as representative of the United States of America in this discussion. Incidentally, it is something of a colorful stretch to assign the classic mantra of "EMPIRE" to the United States of America. Well, that's my latest two Yankee cents worth on this exercise into geopolitical interpretation - for now anyway. In any case, I would like to bid you an especially copacetic day down in you corner of Old Mexico. Adios!


Best Regards,
Uncle Bob :idea: :|
"It is well that war is so terrible, or we should grow too fond of it" - Robert E. Lee

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Re: Cold War's first hot war

#14

Post by South » 18 Feb 2019, 21:32

Good afternoon Xavier,

Your post is duly considered.

The Spanish Civil War was a testing ground for equipment but not an ideological testing ground.

The first "hot war" of the post WWII era must display the Iron Curtain / Bamboo Curtain societies against the "West" / Atlantic Alliance arrangements.

Although the Spanish Civil War qualifies as a big conflict, do note that China also had some big conflicts going on.

Thus, review and think about what was the first confrontation of the ideological societies that we can label the Cold War's first hot war.

Glance at what Uncle Bob wrote above.

......

The US acquired much buffer zone territory after WWII but it wasn't run under an imperial system.


~ Bob
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Xavier
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Re: Cold War's first hot war

#15

Post by Xavier » 18 Feb 2019, 22:33

I consider it because it was the first time the soviet union openly supported one of thebeligerant factions, to make advances on europe beyond its neighbors and phisicall frontiers. yes, I am stretching it a little, but consider what would have happened if the republic have prevailed over the nationalist..it would have been a bastion of russia.

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