Ideologies comparable to Lebensraum?

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ljadw
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Re: Ideologies comparable to Lebensraum?

Post by ljadw » 13 Jan 2021 12:59

Sid Guttridge wrote:
12 Jan 2021 23:18
Hi ljadw,

You can quibble about how many million, (your 2 million estimate is easily the lowest I have seen), but the fact remains that even by your figure Soviet policy killed millions of Ukrainians in a singe year. Just 15 years of that equals your 30 million.

As it was, Ukraine seems to have had an absolute minimum of four years between 1932 and 1944 in which an average of some 2 million of its people died. Other estimates are higher.

However you slice it, your proposition that "You can't kill 30 million Ukrainians." is demonstrably untrue.

Given enough time, malice or malign neglect, killing 30 million Ukrainians was demonstrably doable.

Mao showed that over 1958 to 1962 when anything between 15 and 55 million people died.

What is more shocking is that that the primary focus of the Germans over 1941-44 wasn't on killing Ukrainians. This was incidental. In the Soviet and Chinese cases it seems to have been down to disastrous policy decisions that induced famine.

How much worse might it be if genocide was the main intent, rather than just a by-product?

Cheers,

Sid.
From Demographics of Ukraine
Deaths
1933 : 2,104,000
1934 :462000
The 7 million are the victims (probably exaggerated ) for the famine in the WHOLE of the USSR.
Population of Ukraine
1933 32,456 million
1934 30,910 million
1939 : 33,425 million
1940 ( expanded territory ): 40,65 million
1950 :36,9 million
1959 : 42,155 million
It is obvious that the Oxford figures are wrong : if the population of Ukraine in 1945 was only 32,6 million (40,6 - 8 million losses in WWII ) ,this would mean that in 4/5 years the population would have increased by 4,3 million (difference between 36,9 and 32,6 = 1 million/800000 per year ,and this without the other losses : countless Ukrainian left (voluntarily/forced ) their country during the war,which would result in an even lower figure in 1945 .
About the impossibility of killing in a few years 30 million ( or more ) people, I remain to my point : the Einsatzkommandos could not in 5 years kill 30 million people, = 6 million a year or more than 100000 a week : logistically this would be impossible, politically also as it could not be kept secret .
That, because or as an indirect result, of Mao's/Stalin's agricultural policies millions of people died,is a totally different point .

Sid Guttridge
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Re: Ideologies comparable to Lebensraum?

Post by Sid Guttridge » 13 Jan 2021 13:35

Hi ljadw,

You can play with whatever unsourced and unlinked figures you want, but in every case you have illustrated you are still talking multiple millions in just five years.

You originally simply posted, "You can't kill 30 million Ukrainians."

History tells us it was doable, because about a quarter of it was done in only five years through famine caused by policy mistakes, or malign neglect, without anyone even deliberately trying to do it as a central matter of policy.

Nor do you specify any time scale. It could be done over many decades.

Were there potential obstacles on the way? Of course.

But as it stands, your blunt and unqualified assertion that "You can't kill 30 million Ukrainians." is clearly implausible.

Cheers,

Sid.

Futurist
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Re: Ideologies comparable to Lebensraum?

Post by Futurist » 14 Jan 2021 09:02

@wm: Do you think that Hitler would have still been interested in Soviet Lebensraum specifically had Britain made peace with him back in 1940? Or would Polish and Czech Lebensraum have been enough for him?

ljadw
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Re: Ideologies comparable to Lebensraum?

Post by ljadw » 14 Jan 2021 10:31

Sid Guttridge wrote:
13 Jan 2021 13:35
Hi ljadw,

You can play with whatever unsourced and unlinked figures you want, but in every case you have illustrated you are still talking multiple millions in just five years.

You originally simply posted, "You can't kill 30 million Ukrainians."

History tells us it was doable, because about a quarter of it was done in only five years through famine caused by policy mistakes, or malign neglect, without anyone even deliberately trying to do it as a central matter of policy.

Nor do you specify any time scale. It could be done over many decades.

Were there potential obstacles on the way? Of course.

But as it stands, your blunt and unqualified assertion that "You can't kill 30 million Ukrainians." is clearly implausible.

Cheers,

Sid.
Mao did not kill 15/55 (!) million Chinese : 15/ 55 million Chinese died as result of Mao's agricultural policy (The Great Leap Forward ) : there were no Chinese Einsatzkommandos with the mission to kill 15/55 million people ,but for the Germans ,the only way to kill 30 million Ukrainians was to shoot 30 million Ukrainians . And this was impossible .

Sid Guttridge
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Re: Ideologies comparable to Lebensraum?

Post by Sid Guttridge » 14 Jan 2021 10:57

Hi ljadw,

Starvation and associated vulnerability to diseases are what killed between 15 and 55 million Chinese in five years and around 8 million Ukrainians. It is also what killed a couple of million Red Army POWs in a few months.

Einsatzkommandos are not the most effective way to kill millions of people. Mass starvation is. This can be induced as a matter of policy.

Cheers,

Sid.

ljadw
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Re: Ideologies comparable to Lebensraum?

Post by ljadw » 14 Jan 2021 13:18

The figure of 8 million Ukrainians is a myth .
NO : starvation is not the most effective way to kill millions of people .
To kill millions of people by starvation, it is needed to take away all their food and to prevent them from feeding themselves .To do this you must put them in guarded camps ,all 30 millions .
The Germans tried to do this with the Jewish Poles : they put them in ghettos and prevented the arrival of food ,the result was that 3 years later there were still a lot of Jews in the ghettos who fought when the Germans came to transport them to Auschwitz .
The millions of Chinese who died during the Great Leap Forward did not die because their food was taken away,the starvation in China was the result of failed harvests caused by bad weather and by failed collectivization .

Sid Guttridge
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Re: Ideologies comparable to Lebensraum?

Post by Sid Guttridge » 14 Jan 2021 14:09

Hi ljadw,

If, "The figure of 8 million Ukrainians is a myth.", what is your reality?

You have already proposed that 2 million died in the "Holodomor" in 1932-33. (I should here reiterate that it is lower than the lowest estimate I have seen.)

Assuming we accept this, in your opinion how many other Ukrainians died over 1941-44?

No, the Germans did not prevent the arrival of food in the ghettos. They simply allowed rationing at unsustainably low levels to support life over an extended period.

The 15/55 million Chinese who died of starvation in five years over the late 1950s to early 1960s, died because of failed policies. Tragically, this proves empirically that it does not require any other agency (or even deliberate intent) to wipe out tens of millions of people.

Cheers,

Sid.

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Re: Ideologies comparable to Lebensraum?

Post by Futurist » 20 Jan 2021 22:38

wm wrote:
12 Jan 2021 09:58
He said Southern Ukraine.

southern ukraine.png
Interesting. That said, though, finding wannabe colonizer farmers might have been difficult considering that most of the Germanic world's population was already urban during this time, no? This is why I suggested having wannabe colonizers settle in large cities as a more viable alternative to this.

Sid Guttridge
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Re: Ideologies comparable to Lebensraum?

Post by Sid Guttridge » 20 Jan 2021 23:11

Hi Futurist,

Surely that was Hitler's point?

Increasing population meant that excess rural population had to go to the cities or was lost to emigration due to a shortage of agrarian lebensraum.

His solution was to provide more agrarian lebensraum.

Cheers,

Sid.

Futurist
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Re: Ideologies comparable to Lebensraum?

Post by Futurist » 20 Jan 2021 23:14

Sid Guttridge wrote:
20 Jan 2021 23:11
Hi Futurist,

Surely that was Hitler's point?

Increasing population meant that excess rural population had to go to the cities or was lost to emigration due to a shortage of agrarian lebensraum.

His solution was to provide more agrarian lebensraum.

Cheers,

Sid.
But would such a solution have actually worked? I mean, the huge numbers of rural folks who would have left and moved to the cities would have resulted in much more available agrarian Lebensraum, no?

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Re: Ideologies comparable to Lebensraum?

Post by Sid Guttridge » 20 Jan 2021 23:29

Hi Futurist,

They left for the cities or emigrated precisely because there wasn't employment in rural areas. More fertile land = more rural employment.

Hitler wanted more Germans so his policies were pro-natalist, which would have exacerbated the problem if they succeeded. However, he didn't see it as a problem. He planned to have excess population for resettlement.

In the century before 1939 some 8 million Germans had emigrated to the USA alone. Hitler wanted to stop this and, if possible, recover them and their more numerous descendants as well.

He also planned to draw on the Scandinavians and the Dutch.

Encouraging people to go voluntarily would have been hard work, but who says it would be voluntary? In neither of the two cases we have specific evidence for was it voluntary.

In 1939/40 Hitler simply agreed with Stalin to resettle all Baltic Germans and they were uprooted to Danzig-West-Preussen without any say in the matter at all.

Nor were the South Tyroleans consulted when Hitler agreed with Mussolini to resettle them in Poland. However, in this case the transfer never happened.

Cheers,

Sid.

Futurist
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Re: Ideologies comparable to Lebensraum?

Post by Futurist » 21 Jan 2021 00:21

The lack of employment in rural areas could be changed in a positive manner as a result of a mass exodus from these areas, no?

Well, Yeah, Hitler wanted more German babies to be popped out of German women. That's for sure.

Recovering the lost Germans and their descendants was a fool's errand which was never actually going to be successful.

Life in Scandinavia and the Netherlands would be more attractive than life in Russia or Ukraine, no?

Good point about involuntary migration; for instance, I believe that the Khmer Rouge involuntarily got HUGE numbers of Cambodians to resettle in the Cambodian countryside by force during their own briefly and extremely deadly rule of Cambodia.

BTW, I thought that the Baltic Germans were resettled in Posen Province?

Sid Guttridge
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Re: Ideologies comparable to Lebensraum?

Post by Sid Guttridge » 21 Jan 2021 07:20

Hi futurist,

You ask, "The lack of employment in rural areas could be changed in a positive manner as a result of a mass exodus from these areas, no?"

No, the excess of unemployed in rural areas could be changed in a positive manner as a result of a mass exodus from these areas. It wouldn't create new jobs there.

You say, "Recovering the lost Germans and their descendants was a fool's errand which was never actually going to be successful."

True, in the main. However, continued emigration outside German jurisdiction might be staunched by diversion to the Ukraine.

You say, "BTW, I thought that the Baltic Germans were resettled in Posen Province?"

Quite possibly. However, they were first landed at Gdynia, which was renamed Gotenhafen, where their initial task was to displace Poles. The Baltic German cultural centres, such as their theatre, were set up in the city.

You post, "Life in Scandinavia and the Netherlands would be more attractive than life in Russia or Ukraine, no?"

It certainly wasn't attractive enough to stop 800,000 Norwegians, 500,000 Dutch (and 1.3 million Swedes and some 300,000 Danes) emigrating to the USA in the previous century, so it would be another case of diverting an existing drain of population.

Cheers,

Sid.

ljadw
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Re: Ideologies comparable to Lebensraum?

Post by ljadw » 21 Jan 2021 09:59

Sid Guttridge wrote:
20 Jan 2021 23:29
Hi Futurist,

More fertile land = more rural employment.



Cheers,

Sid.
That is a wrong automatism .
The number of farmers does not depend on the amount of fertile land : the number of farmers in Britain is now only a small minority of those from 1921,and this has nothing to do with the amount of fertile land .More fertile land does not mean more farmers .

Sid Guttridge
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Re: Ideologies comparable to Lebensraum?

Post by Sid Guttridge » 21 Jan 2021 11:17

Hi ljadw,

If you double the fertile land in the UK you are likely to have double the farmers you would otherwise have had, regardless of whether they are still using horses in 1921 or tractors today to pull their ploughs.

Cheers,

Sid.

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