Since 1917 105 years of western blunders in the Middle east

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Peter89
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Re: Since 1917 105 years of western blunders in the Middle east

#16

Post by Peter89 » 05 Jul 2022, 05:47

wm wrote:
02 Jul 2022, 13:55
The Middle East (or, more appropriately, The Ottoman Empire) was a safe haven for the Jews and even European (mostly Polish and Hungarian) freedom fighters. One example is Józef Bem (a national hero of Poland and even more of Hungary), who became the governor of Aleppo (now in Syria.)
There were indeed a lot of emigrées from Hungary and Poland to the Ottoman empire, but not only military and politician figures, also protestants and religious persona non grata.

Józef Bem and the other emigrants from the 1848/1849 freedom war (like György Kmety) joined Turkey because they could fight the Russians whom they hated.
"Everything remained theory and hypothesis. On paper, in his plans, in his head, he juggled with Geschwaders and Divisions, while in reality there were really only makeshift squadrons at his disposal."

pugsville
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Re: Since 1917 105 years of western blunders in the Middle east

#17

Post by pugsville » 05 Jul 2022, 06:37

CogCalgary wrote:
02 Jul 2022, 21:46
wm wrote:
01 Jul 2022, 23:11
The support for the re-establishment of Israel was a huge mistake. It destabilized the entire region, led to immense suffering, and continues to do so even today.
Jewish nationalists love to point out that post-ww2 Israel was the only safe place for Jews but facts deny it.
The majority of European Jews didn't go to Israel. They went somewhere else, preferably to the US.
That support vanished rather quickly if we look at Pasha Glubb and the Arab Legion.
Who never entered the proposed Jewish Partition. The Jordanians were competing with the Israelis about who could conquer and Annex more of the Proposed Palestinian state.


CogCalgary
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Re: Since 1917 105 years of western blunders in the Middle east

#18

Post by CogCalgary » 06 Jul 2022, 14:41

pugsville wrote:
05 Jul 2022, 06:37
CogCalgary wrote:
02 Jul 2022, 21:46
wm wrote:
01 Jul 2022, 23:11
The support for the re-establishment of Israel was a huge mistake. It destabilized the entire region, led to immense suffering, and continues to do so even today.
Jewish nationalists love to point out that post-ww2 Israel was the only safe place for Jews but facts deny it.
The majority of European Jews didn't go to Israel. They went somewhere else, preferably to the US.
That support vanished rather quickly if we look at Pasha Glubb and the Arab Legion.
Who never entered the proposed Jewish Partition. The Jordanians were competing with the Israelis about who could conquer and Annex more of the Proposed Palestinian state.
Ok but who was paying Glubb?Britain?Jordan?Or both?

pugsville
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Re: Since 1917 105 years of western blunders in the Middle east

#19

Post by pugsville » 06 Jul 2022, 15:03

CogCalgary wrote:
06 Jul 2022, 14:41
pugsville wrote:
05 Jul 2022, 06:37
CogCalgary wrote:
02 Jul 2022, 21:46
wm wrote:
01 Jul 2022, 23:11
The support for the re-establishment of Israel was a huge mistake. It destabilized the entire region, led to immense suffering, and continues to do so even today.
Jewish nationalists love to point out that post-ww2 Israel was the only safe place for Jews but facts deny it.
The majority of European Jews didn't go to Israel. They went somewhere else, preferably to the US.
That support vanished rather quickly if we look at Pasha Glubb and the Arab Legion.
Who never entered the proposed Jewish Partition. The Jordanians were competing with the Israelis about who could conquer and Annex more of the Proposed Palestinian state.
Ok but who was paying Glubb?Britain?Jordan?Or both?
Britain via Jordan. Jordanian policy was dictated by London, they were OK annexing the Palestinian state they were NOT OK with attacking Israel. They had made their views extremely well known. They deliberate did not resupply the Arab Legion in the build up to keep the leash short,

CogCalgary
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Re: Since 1917 105 years of western blunders in the Middle east

#20

Post by CogCalgary » 06 Jul 2022, 15:23

Thank you.Going to study this particular period a little closer.

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Sheldrake
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Re: Since 1917 105 years of western blunders in the Middle east

#21

Post by Sheldrake » 26 Jul 2022, 18:22

LAstry2 wrote:
12 Jun 2022, 14:19
First the British Empire tried to ally itself with Arab nations 1917-1949 to dominate the Middle east
This is a gross over simplification. There wasn't a single British decision maker, rather a collection of individuals and institutions with different attitudes, motives, inclinations and interests.

Sure, during WW1 the Arab Bureau in Cairo sponsored the Arab Rebellion and supported Arab Nationalism. Individuals such as TE Lawrence and Gertrude Bell were personally engaged with Arab leaders and encouraged them in their vision and dreams.

But Lord Hardinge the Viceroy of India considered an Arab rebellion or Nation a great disaster. He thought the Middle East should be run from India as part of the Raj. The British Cabinet announced the Balfour Declaration in 1917, the first support for Zionism by a major power.

ljadw
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Re: Since 1917 105 years of western blunders in the Middle east

#22

Post by ljadw » 26 Jul 2022, 21:33

wm wrote:
01 Jul 2022, 23:11
The support for the re-establishment of Israel was a huge mistake. It destabilized the entire region, led to immense suffering, and continues to do so even today.
Jewish nationalists love to point out that post-ww2 Israel was the only safe place for Jews but facts deny it.
The majority of European Jews didn't go to Israel.
The destabilization of the region started when the Ottoman Empire collapsed, not because of the reestablishment of Israel .There is no causal connection between both .
And : there are NO European Jews, but ''only '' Jewish Europeans .People who mostly do not consider themselves as Jewish, but are labelled Jews by the anti-Semites in Europe .
Last point : the western blunders were/are mainly American blunders ,because (mostly ) Democratic US administrations try to impose their values on the inhabitants of the ME.

ljadw
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Re: Since 1917 105 years of western blunders in the Middle east

#23

Post by ljadw » 26 Jul 2022, 21:36

historygeek2021 wrote:
04 Jul 2022, 15:54
You mean 105 years of arrogant Europeans and Americans interfering in the lives of the people of the Middle East, just like they've been doing to most of the world for the past 5 centuries.
Not since 105 years, but since more than 1000 years ,the inhabitants of the ME are interfering in the lives of the Europeans,Africans and Asians .

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wm
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Re: Since 1917 105 years of western blunders in the Middle east

#24

Post by wm » 26 Jul 2022, 22:24

ljadw wrote:
26 Jul 2022, 21:33
The destabilization of the region started when the Ottoman Empire collapsed, not because of the reestablishment of Israel .There is no causal connection between both.
And where is evidence for that? Where actually did the destabilization happen? Outside the usual anti-colonial movements?
The region would do well without Israel and the wars caused by it, including the invasion of Egypt in defense of colonial rights over the Suez Canal.

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Re: Since 1917 105 years of western blunders in the Middle east

#25

Post by CogCalgary » 27 Jul 2022, 00:07

Possibly started by the disaster that befell the Armenians?

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wm
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Re: Since 1917 105 years of western blunders in the Middle east

#26

Post by wm » 27 Jul 2022, 01:18

Although the Ottomans had nothing to do with it, it was the new kid on the block - the Young Turks, i.e., Turkish socialists.
It happened in apocalyptic times when Turkey was on the brink of destruction, seemingly threatened by the Armenians too.
Turkey regained stability very quickly.
Btw the Jews enthusiastically supported the Young Turks.

CogCalgary
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Re: Since 1917 105 years of western blunders in the Middle east

#27

Post by CogCalgary » 27 Jul 2022, 06:57

wm wrote:
27 Jul 2022, 01:18
Although the Ottomans had nothing to do with it, it was the new kid on the block - the Young Turks, i.e., Turkish socialists.
It happened in apocalyptic times when Turkey was on the brink of destruction, seemingly threatened by the Armenians too.
Turkey regained stability very quickly.
Btw the Jews enthusiastically supported the Young Turks.
Did not the British inadvertently cause this disaster to be even larger?

ljadw
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Re: Since 1917 105 years of western blunders in the Middle east

#28

Post by ljadw » 27 Jul 2022, 08:17

wm wrote:
26 Jul 2022, 22:24
ljadw wrote:
26 Jul 2022, 21:33
The destabilization of the region started when the Ottoman Empire collapsed, not because of the reestablishment of Israel .There is no causal connection between both.
And where is evidence for that? Where actually did the destabilization happen? Outside the usual anti-colonial movements?
The region would do well without Israel and the wars caused by it, including the invasion of Egypt in defense of colonial rights over the Suez Canal.
The Ottoman Empire ( a multinational state and thus a colonialist state ) was already collapsing before WW 1.
And Israel did not exist before WW 1 .

ljadw
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Re: Since 1917 105 years of western blunders in the Middle east

#29

Post by ljadw » 27 Jul 2022, 08:21

CogCalgary wrote:
27 Jul 2022, 00:07
Possibly started by the disaster that befell the Armenians?
The persecution of the Armenians happened already a generation before WW1 .
What you call '' a disaster '' was only the logical consequence of the Hamidian massacres ( between 80000 and 300000 victims ) .

ljadw
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Re: Since 1917 105 years of western blunders in the Middle east

#30

Post by ljadw » 27 Jul 2022, 08:25

wm wrote:
27 Jul 2022, 01:18
Although the Ottomans had nothing to do with it, it was the new kid on the block - the Young Turks, i.e., Turkish socialists.
It happened in apocalyptic times when Turkey was on the brink of destruction, seemingly threatened by the Armenians too.
Turkey regained stability very quickly.
Btw the Jews enthusiastically supported the Young Turks.
There is no such thing as ''The Jews ''.
Did ''the Jews '' in the Pale of Settlements even knew of the existence of the Young Turks ?

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