Henry Kissinger on Russia and Ukraine

Discussions on other historical eras.
Sid Guttridge
Member
Posts: 9866
Joined: 12 Jun 2008 11:19

Re: Henry Kissinger on Russia and Ukraine

Post by Sid Guttridge » 05 Aug 2022 15:36

Hi ljadw,

You are still avoiding taking the long historical view. This has been going on for centuries. It did not start in 2014, or even 1991.

Nor have you yet addressed, let alone contradicted, a single point I made.

Nor have you produced anything from the Cato Institute that does, either.

Furthermore you have simply ignored my question: "Besides, why does Ukraine have to be neutral?" An answer, please.

You talk of Russian nationalist perceptions, not reality. The fact that they choose to feel "surrounded" doesn't mean they actually are. There is no good reason to accept such "paranoia" as if it is based in reality.

Like the Americans with their "backyard", the Russians have their "near abroad" in which they consider they have a right to exclusive influence. In reality, both the "backyard" and "near abroad" are somebody else's houses and they have their own independent opinions on their preferred national destinies. That is why Putin is having such trouble depriving the Ukrainians of their lands.

Tell us more about the supposed "mass weapons transports to Ukraine"? I don't see any US tanks, artillery, missile artillery systems, aircraft, or ships being operated by Ukraine in any number before 2022. The Ukrainians seem to have been overwhelmingly equipped with Soviet era or Soviet-derived equipment plus a few recently developed anti-tank and anti-ship missile systems of their own development. The drones were Turkish. The anti-tank missiles that came in bulk in 2022 (defensive weapons par excellence) were only partly from the US and these were not the first to be received. Can we have a list of all this massive influx of US weaponry you are claiming came to Ukraine before 2022, so that we can inspect it?

As the last election showed, Lukachenka in Belarus is far more at risk from his own population than from any outside forces. But you are right, Putin fears losing a supportive fellow autocrat. Why? Because at the moment he is holding down his own population, which seems to be westward leaning in much the same way as most Ukrainians clearly are.

Ukraine doesn't have to be a US satellite unless it chooses to be so. NATO expands by mutual consensus, not imposition. Compare that with Russia's current technique of acquiring Ukrainian adherence - naked aggression and conquest.

Yes, if you say "Ukraine" you are factoring in corruption. The same is so when you say "Russia". What is your point? That Ukraine makes a better fit with Russia because they are both deeply corrupt? Perhaps Ukrainians prefer the less corrupt European model to the patently corrupt Russian model and seek to better themselves through association with the EU? Who could blame them!

Cheers,

Sid.

User avatar
wm
Member
Posts: 7167
Joined: 29 Dec 2006 20:11
Location: Poland

Re: Henry Kissinger on Russia and Ukraine

Post by wm » 05 Aug 2022 18:15

The Western world has lots to offer, including wealth and freedom, so countries like Ukraine gravitate towards the West naturally.
Russia, an authoritarian developing country, has nothing. Like a delusional stalker, Russia has to resort to coercion.

Peter89
Member
Posts: 1702
Joined: 28 Aug 2018 05:52
Location: Spain

Re: Henry Kissinger on Russia and Ukraine

Post by Peter89 » 05 Aug 2022 20:10

Sid Guttridge wrote:
05 Aug 2022 05:50
Hi Peter89,

It is true that Ukraine could only become an EU member in one or two decades. However, this still represents a major threat to Russian nationalists like Putin, who believe that Ukraine doesn't really exist, because it would mean that Ukraine was adopting values and standards increasingly alien to Russian ones, thereby accentuating the existing differences between the two peoples. Russian nationalists have invaded Ukraine precisely to halt this steady westward drift by Kiev, which is taking the route previously trodden by other Slavic countries into the Western camp.

Cheers,

Sid.
Hello Sid,

That's what I'd think by myself. However, Ukraine did not really drift westwards, and did not really adopt western values. It was a very corrupt and very poor country with questionable democracy and the economy was run by the maffia / oligarchs. Ukraine was actually pretty evenly divided between the West and the Russians. Then, something happened. What exactly, I do not know.
“And while I am talking to you, mothers and fathers, I give you one more assurance. I have said this before, but I shall say it again, and again and again. Your boys are not going to be sent into any foreign wars." - FDR, October 1940

historygeek2021
Member
Posts: 631
Joined: 17 Dec 2020 06:23
Location: Laniakea

Re: Henry Kissinger on Russia and Ukraine

Post by historygeek2021 » 05 Aug 2022 21:06

LOL. So many westerners think they know what's best for other people's countries

LineDoggie
Member
Posts: 798
Joined: 03 Oct 2008 20:06

Re: Henry Kissinger on Russia and Ukraine

Post by LineDoggie » 05 Aug 2022 23:46

ljadw wrote:
05 Aug 2022 07:37
In 2019 Ukraine sold weapons for $ 96 million
in 2020 for 115 million .
Why have we not the same rights ?
Who is "We"?


Wow a Whole $96 Million dollars? that's amazing, does that buy what three Mig 35?
"There are two kinds of people who are staying on this beach: those who are dead and those who are going to die. Now let’s get the hell out of here".
Col. George Taylor, 16th Infantry Regiment, Omaha Beach

LineDoggie
Member
Posts: 798
Joined: 03 Oct 2008 20:06

Re: Henry Kissinger on Russia and Ukraine

Post by LineDoggie » 06 Aug 2022 00:30

ljadw wrote:
05 Aug 2022 12:21
You said that Russia could not admit the existence of a sovereign Ukrainian state and that that is the reason why Putin attacked .
The facts are that during more than 20 years Ukraine existed as an independent state and that Putin did nothing .The CIA coup of Euromaidan

There was and is no such thing as the CIA Coup of Euromaiden just the usual russian lies. And russia has tried to destabilize Ukraine since the USSR broke up.
ljadw wrote:
05 Aug 2022 12:21
triggered a Russian answer and then

to a question no one asked
ljadw wrote:
05 Aug 2022 12:21
... NOTHING happened and Ukraine continued to exist as an independent state, notwithstanding the mass US weapons transports to Ukraine .

You mean US weapon transports after russian scumbags invaded Ukraine and start killing civilians left and right
ljadw wrote:
05 Aug 2022 12:21
Putin remained silent and did nothing when Zelensky became president .
Who gives putin or russia the right to do otherwise? Zelensky was elected by the Ukrainians- Putin can go fornicate his own mother orally for all he has a right to say about Zelensky's election.



ljadw wrote:
05 Aug 2022 12:21
No one knows why he attacked in February ,we only know that the reasons given by Radio Free Europa are lies .
Say the russians and their lackeys.....
ljadw wrote:
05 Aug 2022 12:21
We can only assume a reason,which is , IMHO, the attempts from the US and its satellites ,to destabilize Lycachenko from Bielarus .

I bet putin and Lukashenko dock each other....
ljadw wrote:
05 Aug 2022 12:21
This increased the paranoia in the Kremlin,and not unjustifiedly : if the CIA dares to try to eliminate Lycachenko, they would do the same with Putin .

Putins own lackeys will liquidate him once they cannot feed their families. A Stechkin to the neck on burst, job done
ljadw wrote:
05 Aug 2022 12:21
The world of the Kremlin is a world where Russia is encircled by its enemies as was the USSR before and after WW2 .
In humans such behavior is a mental health defect that's called paranoia. But let's examine that russia is surrounded by enemies (''Mewl says the russians, ukraine was mean to us''

maybe because how russia treated its neighbors from 1940 onwards (And lets count the 30's genocide of Ukrainians in the Holodomor)-

Invaded, occupied and committed ethnic cleansing in Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Poland (Katyn ring a bell for you son?) everywhere the Russian soldier arrived rape , murder followed them, they even raped liberated concentration camp inmates, frikken savage animals.

Sent tanks to people demanding bread, work and freedom in Hungary, Czechoslovakia. Invaded Finland and stole their land, Murdered East German Workers for demanding reforms.

ljadw wrote:
05 Aug 2022 12:21
Putin does not try to transform Nicaragua in a Russian satellite,as is doing US with Ukraine
Another lie by the liar putin and his lackeys .
ljadw wrote:
05 Aug 2022 12:21
Why must Ukraine (if you say Ukraine,you say corruption ) become a member of NATO and the EU (the economic NATO ) at the cost of the European taxpayer .Besides :why does Ukraine have to be a US satellite ?
Freedom is priceless, those who lived under russian scum know this
"There are two kinds of people who are staying on this beach: those who are dead and those who are going to die. Now let’s get the hell out of here".
Col. George Taylor, 16th Infantry Regiment, Omaha Beach

LineDoggie
Member
Posts: 798
Joined: 03 Oct 2008 20:06

Re: Henry Kissinger on Russia and Ukraine

Post by LineDoggie » 06 Aug 2022 00:33

ljadw wrote:
05 Aug 2022 12:34


Russian nationalists have invaded Ukraine,after a period of more than 20 years when they did nothing . Thus it is not a question of nationalism.
It is a question of fear for the western Einkreisung .
Nice, Putin uses german? well he looks like adolfs retarded child so....
"There are two kinds of people who are staying on this beach: those who are dead and those who are going to die. Now let’s get the hell out of here".
Col. George Taylor, 16th Infantry Regiment, Omaha Beach

Peter89
Member
Posts: 1702
Joined: 28 Aug 2018 05:52
Location: Spain

Re: Henry Kissinger on Russia and Ukraine

Post by Peter89 » 06 Aug 2022 04:47

ljadw wrote:
05 Aug 2022 12:21
.Why must Ukraine (if you say Ukraine,you say corruption ) become a member of NATO and the EU (the economic NATO ) at the cost of the European taxpayer .Besides :why does Ukraine have to be a US satellite ?
EU is not the economic NATO and it was never meant to be that. Russia had excellent cooperation with the EU up until the Ukraine invasion and neither side actually threatened the other, because: both sides could only lose (what we see now).

Also: 2013 Ukraine would never become a member of the NATO or the EU. 2023 Ukraine might become a member of the NATO (Albania and Croatia are members of the NATO sheltering war criminals), but it still can't be a member of the EU.
“And while I am talking to you, mothers and fathers, I give you one more assurance. I have said this before, but I shall say it again, and again and again. Your boys are not going to be sent into any foreign wars." - FDR, October 1940

ljadw
Member
Posts: 13127
Joined: 13 Jul 2009 17:50

Re: Henry Kissinger on Russia and Ukraine

Post by ljadw » 06 Aug 2022 05:42

Most NATO members are members of the EU and most EU members are members of NATO.
The EU is also ( as NATO ) interventionist,even outside Europe and is arrogantly lecturing and threatening,sanctioning countries that are not members of the EU : example : Belarus.
Since June Ukraine is already a candidate member of the EU,and who will dare to oppose its membership ?

Peter89
Member
Posts: 1702
Joined: 28 Aug 2018 05:52
Location: Spain

Re: Henry Kissinger on Russia and Ukraine

Post by Peter89 » 06 Aug 2022 06:41

ljadw wrote:
06 Aug 2022 05:42
Most NATO members are members of the EU and most EU members are members of NATO.
The EU is also ( as NATO ) interventionist,even outside Europe and is arrogantly lecturing and threatening,sanctioning countries that are not members of the EU : example : Belarus.
Since June Ukraine is already a candidate member of the EU,and who will dare to oppose its membership ?
EU has a cooperative, humanitarian and multilateral foreign policy: but do not mistake foreign policy with military intervention. Although the EU could crush Lukashenko in a month (especially since the Byelorussian people are not behind him anymore) militarily, the EU opted for scaling back the economic cooperation, nothing more. Because: it is the Byelorussian people's job to get rid of him as long as he doesn't use military to kill his own people.

The most powerful country in Europe, Germany do not send military forces anywhere without UN approval, thus: without the consent of Russia and China. They didn't even join the war in Iraq and North Africa, the same is true for Austria, Finland, etc. Nor did they supply weapons into conflict zones.

Turkey applied in 1987, and it is still not a member, and will never be a member.

Foreign policy is not the same as military intervention: by your definition, every single country on Earth is interventionalist, because they have opinion about other countries.
“And while I am talking to you, mothers and fathers, I give you one more assurance. I have said this before, but I shall say it again, and again and again. Your boys are not going to be sent into any foreign wars." - FDR, October 1940

ljadw
Member
Posts: 13127
Joined: 13 Jul 2009 17:50

Re: Henry Kissinger on Russia and Ukraine

Post by ljadw » 06 Aug 2022 07:46

LineDoggie wrote:
06 Aug 2022 00:33
ljadw wrote:
05 Aug 2022 12:34


Russian nationalists have invaded Ukraine,after a period of more than 20 years when they did nothing . Thus it is not a question of nationalism.
It is a question of fear for the western Einkreisung .
Nice, Putin uses german? well he looks like adolfs retarded child so....
I see (and I was convinced of it ) that your knowledge of European history is much lacking : Adolf did not talk about Einkreising (encirclement ) ,but of MGGA (make Germany Great Again ).Einkreisung was used by Wilhelminian Germany before 1914 .

ljadw
Member
Posts: 13127
Joined: 13 Jul 2009 17:50

Re: Henry Kissinger on Russia and Ukraine

Post by ljadw » 06 Aug 2022 07:49

historygeek2021 wrote:
05 Aug 2022 21:06
LOL. So many westerners think they know what's best for other people's countries
The Kipling complex :people who do not want liberal democracy are half devil,half child . 8-)

ljadw
Member
Posts: 13127
Joined: 13 Jul 2009 17:50

Re: Henry Kissinger on Russia and Ukraine

Post by ljadw » 06 Aug 2022 07:51

wm wrote:
05 Aug 2022 18:15
The Western world has lots to offer, including wealth and freedom, so countries like Ukraine gravitate towards the West naturally.
Russia, an authoritarian developing country, has nothing. Like a delusional stalker, Russia has to resort to coercion.
There is no relation between wealth and freedom and ,faced by the choice between wealth or freedom, most people will chose wealth .

ljadw
Member
Posts: 13127
Joined: 13 Jul 2009 17:50

Re: Henry Kissinger on Russia and Ukraine

Post by ljadw » 06 Aug 2022 08:51

Peter89 wrote:
06 Aug 2022 06:41
ljadw wrote:
06 Aug 2022 05:42
Most NATO members are members of the EU and most EU members are members of NATO.
The EU is also ( as NATO ) interventionist,even outside Europe and is arrogantly lecturing and threatening,sanctioning countries that are not members of the EU : example : Belarus.
Since June Ukraine is already a candidate member of the EU,and who will dare to oppose its membership ?
EU has a cooperative, humanitarian and multilateral foreign policy: but do not mistake foreign policy with military intervention. Although the EU could crush Lukashenko in a month (especially since the Byelorussian people are not behind him anymore) militarily, the EU opted for scaling back the economic cooperation, nothing more. Because: it is the Byelorussian people's job to get rid of him as long as he doesn't use military to kill his own people.

The most powerful country in Europe, Germany do not send military forces anywhere without UN approval, thus: without the consent of Russia and China. They didn't even join the war in Iraq and North Africa, the same is true for Austria, Finland, etc. Nor did they supply weapons into conflict zones.

Turkey applied in 1987, and it is still not a member, and will never be a member.

Foreign policy is not the same as military intervention: by your definition, every single country on Earth is interventionalist, because they have opinion about other countries.
German war exports in 2020 :8 billion Euro,in 2021 9 billion Euro, together with France :230 million Euro to Russia !!! (The Telegraph 22 April ).
Nothing wrong,as if you can't sell weapons to indecent people who will use them to kill other people,you can't have a weapon industry .
Germany exports weapons to Iraq (Liberal Democracy ??),South Korea, South Africa,Libya, Egypt, and gives weapons for free to Ukraine .The others have to pay .
The whole thing proves the hypocrisy of the Western countries .Exporting weapons to war zones and doing blah blah about peace .
About the humanitarian foreign policy of the EU bureaucrats : they attacked the elections in Venezuela ,a country in Latin America . This proves only their imperialism, racism and colonialism .
What's happening in Venezuela is the business of the people of Venezuela, not the business of von der Leyen .
It is the same for the attacks on Lucachenko,of whom you claim,without proof that he has lost the support of the inhabitants of Bela Rus .To honor an opponent of Lucachenko and to label her as the legal president is an attack on the sovereignty of Bela Rus .
And, opposed to what you say , the EU is imposing sanctions on Bela Rus and demands new elections .
Lucashenko is the the facto,thus de jure ,president of Bela Rus and what Lithuania is saying is irrelevant .The same for what is saying von der Leyen who said that Tikhanovskaya is ''an inspiration to us all .''
Imposing sanctions on a country outside the EU,because the EU does not like its domestic policy is racism, colonialism and imperialism .The same for giving the opponents of the ruler millions of euro to fire him by a civil war .
We do not need a president of Bela Rus who is an inspiration for us, but a president of Bela Rus with whom we can do business and make money .
In the past Lucashenko was as dictatorial as he is today, but this did not prevent the hypocritical EU to sell him Glocks (Austria ), Sig-Sauer (Germany ) Benelli ( Italy ),Remington (US ),etc ..

User avatar
wm
Member
Posts: 7167
Joined: 29 Dec 2006 20:11
Location: Poland

Re: Henry Kissinger on Russia and Ukraine

Post by wm » 06 Aug 2022 09:41

There is no relation between wealth and freedom and ,faced by the choice between wealth or freedom, most people will chose wealth .
I didn't say there is a relation between wealth and freedom.
But there is anyway.
Without economic, legal, political freedoms is hard to get rich, hard to create wealth.
Last edited by wm on 06 Aug 2022 10:03, edited 1 time in total.

Return to “Other eras”