The end of tanks as we know it?

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Gooner1
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Re: The end of tanks as we know it?

Post by Gooner1 » 25 Jan 2023 12:40

So Leopard IIs are official then:

"The goal is to quickly assemble two tank battalions with Leopard 2 tanks for Ukraine. As a first step, Germany will provide a company with 14 Leopard 2 A6 tanks from Bundeswehr stocks. Other European partners will also hand over Leopard-2 tanks. The training of the Ukrainian crews is to begin quickly in Germany. In addition to training, the package will also include logistics, ammunition and system maintenance.
Germany will issue the appropriate transfer permits to partner countries that want to quickly deliver Leopard 2 tanks from their stocks to Ukraine."

https://www.bundesregierung.de/breg-de/ ... an-2160236


Pleased that the first 14 from Germany are to be the A6 models. Portugal has promised 4 A6s and the Netherlands were talking about sending (after buying them) their complete stock of 18 A6s. Denmark might also send some of their A6s

Speculation is that Spain, Finland, Poland and Norway will provide their A4 version of the Leopard II.

So maybe a battalion each of the A6 and A4 though mixing them in the same battalion would be desirable I think.

Be interesting to see how many Abrams the US decide to send, speculation was 30-50, so again probably a battalions worth, if they decide to send them.
The British Challenger IIs likely to remain an orphan company.

Organised In formations with the 200 Bradley, CV90 and Marder IFVs soon to be arriving I assume. Nice.

ljadw
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Re: The end of tanks as we know it?

Post by ljadw » 25 Jan 2023 13:44

Aida1 wrote:
25 Jan 2023 12:11
gebhk wrote:
25 Jan 2023 12:00
Most tank losses were non combat losses and most tank combat losses are not caused by enemy tanks, but by artillery, infantry ..
And a non-sequitur to what I wrote, which was that a tank has been the most effective way of mounting a tank killing weapon in the last 100 years or so.

Here's a thought experiment - you are going to fight an enemy tank with, let's say, a 75mm A/T gun. What do you think would give you the best chances destroying the enemy tank and, crucially, survibing youurself? The gun mounted opn two heels and pulled by two horses, on the back of a truck, on a self propelled turretless chassis or in a tank with a rotating turret? Answers on the back of a postcard as they say. :wink:

Note the critical words which you are ignoring - effective and tank killing. We are not talking of breakdowns we are talking of destroying tanks in combat.
He does not understand the latter.
The result of a breakdown or of a tank destroyed in combat, is the same .
Besides : it is not needed to destroy a tank in combat to eliminate him : you can do it by eliminating the truck with fuel.
And, how many tanks damaged in combat could be repaired at time so that they could be used again ?

ljadw
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Re: The end of tanks as we know it?

Post by ljadw » 25 Jan 2023 13:48

Gooner1 wrote:
25 Jan 2023 12:40
So Leopard IIs are official then:

"The goal is to quickly assemble two tank battalions with Leopard 2 tanks for Ukraine. As a first step, Germany will provide a company with 14 Leopard 2 A6 tanks from Bundeswehr stocks. Other European partners will also hand over Leopard-2 tanks. The training of the Ukrainian crews is to begin quickly in Germany. In addition to training, the package will also include logistics, ammunition and system maintenance.
Germany will issue the appropriate transfer permits to partner countries that want to quickly deliver Leopard 2 tanks from their stocks to Ukraine."

https://www.bundesregierung.de/breg-de/ ... an-2160236


Pleased that the first 14 from Germany are to be the A6 models. Portugal has promised 4 A6s and the Netherlands were talking about sending (after buying them) their complete stock of 18 A6s. Denmark might also send some of their A6s

Speculation is that Spain, Finland, Poland and Norway will provide their A4 version of the Leopard II.

So maybe a battalion each of the A6 and A4 though mixing them in the same battalion would be desirable I think.

Be interesting to see how many Abrams the US decide to send, speculation was 30-50, so again probably a battalions worth, if they decide to send them.
The British Challenger IIs likely to remain an orphan company.

Organised In formations with the 200 Bradley, CV90 and Marder IFVs soon to be arriving I assume. Nice.
The goal , 14 tanks ,of course without answering when , speculation , I assume.
Very nice .
Seeing is believing .

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Re: The end of tanks as we know it?

Post by Cult Icon » 25 Jan 2023 14:46

The main 'tank killer' of Ukrainian armor in this war has been Russian drone-spotted artillery.

The main 'tank killer' of Russian armor in this war has been Ukrainian drone-spotted artillery.

Russian and American guided artillery rounds can knock out tanks in one hit.

Russian and Ukrainian ATGM can knock out tanks, including Abrams/leopards in one hit.

Boomers, this is not WW2.

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Re: The end of tanks as we know it?

Post by Cult Icon » 25 Jan 2023 15:12

After the Russians deal with these white elephants, they will perform outside exhibitions with captured samples (Bradley, Abrams, Leopard) and gloat about them.

Then they will move particularly in-tact samples to their tank museums and display them next to Panther, Tiger I, Tiger II, and Sturmtiger.

Gooner1
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Re: The end of tanks as we know it?

Post by Gooner1 » 25 Jan 2023 15:48

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Aida1
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Re: The end of tanks as we know it?

Post by Aida1 » 25 Jan 2023 17:00

ljadw wrote:
25 Jan 2023 13:44
Aida1 wrote:
25 Jan 2023 12:11
gebhk wrote:
25 Jan 2023 12:00
Most tank losses were non combat losses and most tank combat losses are not caused by enemy tanks, but by artillery, infantry ..
And a non-sequitur to what I wrote, which was that a tank has been the most effective way of mounting a tank killing weapon in the last 100 years or so.

Here's a thought experiment - you are going to fight an enemy tank with, let's say, a 75mm A/T gun. What do you think would give you the best chances destroying the enemy tank and, crucially, survibing youurself? The gun mounted opn two heels and pulled by two horses, on the back of a truck, on a self propelled turretless chassis or in a tank with a rotating turret? Answers on the back of a postcard as they say. :wink:

Note the critical words which you are ignoring - effective and tank killing. We are not talking of breakdowns we are talking of destroying tanks in combat.
He does not understand the latter.
The result of a breakdown or of a tank destroyed in combat, is the same .
Besides : it is not needed to destroy a tank in combat to eliminate him : you can do it by eliminating the truck with fuel.
And, how many tanks damaged in combat could be repaired at time so that they could be used again ?
Another example of your ignorance. A tank that is not totall loss can be repaired so there is a massive difference between breakdown and destruction. Many tanks can be repaired.
Immobilising a tank is not the same as destruction if it is not captured or blown up to avoid the former.

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Aida1
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Re: The end of tanks as we know it?

Post by Aida1 » 25 Jan 2023 17:03

Cult Icon wrote:
25 Jan 2023 14:46
The main 'tank killer' of Ukrainian armor in this war has been Russian drone-spotted artillery.

The main 'tank killer' of Russian armor in this war has been Ukrainian drone-spotted artillery.

Russian and American guided artillery rounds can knock out tanks in one hit.

Russian and Ukrainian ATGM can knock out tanks, including Abrams/leopards in one hit.

Boomers, this is not WW2.
All depends on proper tactical use of tanks. That Russia and its followers get so upset about delivery of western tanks is because they fear them. :lol:

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Aida1
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Re: The end of tanks as we know it?

Post by Aida1 » 25 Jan 2023 17:04

Cult Icon wrote:
25 Jan 2023 15:12
After the Russians deal with these white elephants, they will perform outside exhibitions with captured samples (Bradley, Abrams, Leopard) and gloat about them.

Then they will move particularly in-tact samples to their tank museums and display them next to Panther, Tiger I, Tiger II, and Sturmtiger.
Your grapes are very sour it seems. Typical example of being a blind follower of Putin. And being really worried about western tanks despite all the denials. :lol: .

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Re: The end of tanks as we know it?

Post by Cult Icon » 25 Jan 2023 17:05

Once these tanks/IFV are 20KM from the front, Russian drone-artillery will start to hunt them down and destroy their supporting vehicles, and overall whittle down their numbers.

Then for the surviving tanks/IFV that actually make it to the front lines, they would be engaged with SU-25, KA-52, and other helicopters/fighters with anti-tank PGM or glide bombs/rockets. Then Russian armor and ATGM will destroy them.

massed Armor has been used successfully/efficiently in the pursuit, AFTER infantry & fire support break through and do the actual fighting. But the advantages of a heavy tank over a T-series is not clear.

Besides direct fire, there has been deep interdiction which is not reported much at all in Western sources. The Russians have fired thousands of missiles, eg. Iskander-M at ammo dumps, fuel depots, supply depots, and assemblies.

Does the wishful thinkers think that the Ukrainians take photographs of their own destroyed war material, XXX KM behind the front and then send them to Oryx and Lost Armor propaganda sites? Ditto for Russia's tank losses from HIMARs and Tochka-U.

Ukraine has less tanks than they claim.
Last edited by Cult Icon on 25 Jan 2023 17:08, edited 1 time in total.

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Aida1
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Re: The end of tanks as we know it?

Post by Aida1 » 25 Jan 2023 17:08

Michael Kenny wrote:
25 Jan 2023 12:27
Aida1 wrote:
25 Jan 2023 12:10
Actually german ww2 commanders knew very well how to deal with russian tank attacks
Really? How did that work out for them?


https://www.worldwarphotos.info/wp-cont ... zow_44.jpg
They were not allowed to do what they would have preferred to do operationally which would have worked out better for Germany. You may believe in the invincibility of Russia but that is a very dumb :lol: :lol: :lol: .

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Aida1
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Re: The end of tanks as we know it?

Post by Aida1 » 25 Jan 2023 17:11

Cult Icon wrote:
25 Jan 2023 17:05
Once these tanks/IFV are 20KM from the front, Russian drone-artillery will start to hunt them down and destroy their supporting vehicles, and overall whittle down their numbers.

Then for the surviving tanks/IFV that actually make it to the front lines, they would be engaged with SU-25, KA-52, and other helicopters/fighters with anti-tank PGM or glide bombs/rockets. Then Russian armor and ATGM will destroy them.

massed Armor has been used successfully/efficiently in the pursuit, AFTER infantry & fire support break through and do the actual fighting. But the advantages of a heavy tank over a T-series is not clear.

Besides direct fire, there has been deep interdiction which is not reported much at all in Western sources. The Russians have fired thousands of missiles, eg. Iskander-M at ammo dumps, fuel depots, supply depots, and assemblies.

Does the wishful thinkers think that the Ukrainians take photographs of their own destroyed war material, XXX KM behind the front and then send them to Oryx and Lost Armor propaganda sites? Ditto for Russia's tank losses from HIMARs and Tochka-U.

Ukraine has less tanks than they claim.
Wishfull thinking as always with you. If anybody believed you, Russia would have occupied the Ukraine long time ago. :lol: :lol: You do not live in the same world as normal people.

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Re: The end of tanks as we know it?

Post by Michael Kenny » 25 Jan 2023 17:12

Aida1 wrote:
25 Jan 2023 17:08


They were not allowed to do what they would have preferred to do operationally which would have worked out better for Germany......

The above made no sense when you posted it as General G/Butgen and the other 40 fake IDs you used to use here and it still makes no sense today.

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Re: The end of tanks as we know it?

Post by Cult Icon » 25 Jan 2023 17:12

This man, like millions of others, is digging his hands bloody for the 'magical keys' to victory :

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Aida1
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Re: The end of tanks as we know it?

Post by Aida1 » 25 Jan 2023 17:14

Michael Kenny wrote:
25 Jan 2023 17:12
Aida1 wrote:
25 Jan 2023 17:08


They were not allowed to do what they would have preferred to do operationally which would have worked out better for Germany......

The above made no sense when you posted it as General G/Butgen and the other 40 fake IDs you used to use here and it still makes no sense today.
It does make a lot sense as german operational thinking and what Hitler imposed were two different things. :roll: :roll:

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