The end of tanks as we know it?

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Aida1
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Re: The end of tanks as we know it?

#496

Post by Aida1 » 27 Jan 2023, 19:38

ljadw wrote:
27 Jan 2023, 15:28
A tank is out if he has no more ammunition
A tank is out if he has no more fuel
A tank is out if the tank crew is eliminated ,by a sniper
A tank is out if he has no more spare parts
A tank is out if his track (s ) is eliminated
In all these examples there is no need to destroy a tank
A tank is a sitting duck if he has no protection of infantry and artillery .
In the first two weeks of Barbarossa the Soviets lost some 12000 tanks (source :Mark Solonin ),most of them by non combat causes and those destroyed by German tanks were an insignificant minority .
Ridiculous posting. A tank can get refueled,get more ammo and be repaired. A tank crew killed by a sniper :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
Armored vehicles best always operate as a team but a tank alone is certainly not a sitting duck , far from it.
You know nothing about armored warfare. :lol: :lol:

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Re: The end of tanks as we know it?

#497

Post by Cult Icon » 28 Jan 2023, 01:17

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T-72B1, cages on all sides, and ERA all over the top.


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Re: The end of tanks as we know it?

#498

Post by Cult Icon » 28 Jan 2023, 01:37

drone footage of Tank and the ruins of Marinka


Gooner1
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Re: The end of tanks as we know it?

#499

Post by Gooner1 » 28 Jan 2023, 01:53

Delivered and forthcoming deliveries of tanks to Ukraine.

Not quite accurate. Poland are also planning on transferring 30 more T-72M1/M1R and 14 Leopard II. Morocco (!) are transferring 20 modernized T-72B.
Whilst 20 of the T-72EAs from Czechia have already been sent.

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I make that 227 new tanks scheduled for Ukraine in the next few months, though the Leopard II numbers are likely to rise.
Most of these are superior to the 'new' tanks Russia will be receiving, markedly so in the Abrams, Challenger and Leopard IIA6.

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Re: The end of tanks as we know it?

#500

Post by Tom Peters » 28 Jan 2023, 02:12

ljadw wrote:
27 Jan 2023, 10:49
Today's tanks are not more reliable than the tanks of WW2
Got any proof of that ? mean time between major overhauls ? Typical engine lifetime ? barrel longevity ? Anything ?

Mad Dog


ljadw
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Re: The end of tanks as we know it?

#502

Post by ljadw » 28 Jan 2023, 09:02

Gooner1 wrote:
28 Jan 2023, 01:53
Delivered and forthcoming deliveries of tanks to Ukraine.

Not quite accurate. Poland are also planning on transferring 30 more T-72M1/M1R and 14 Leopard II. Morocco (!) are transferring 20 modernized T-72B.
Whilst 20 of the T-72EAs from Czechia have already been sent.

Image

I make that 227 new tanks scheduled for Ukraine in the next few months, though the Leopard II numbers are likely to rise.
Most of these are superior to the 'new' tanks Russia will be receiving, markedly so in the Abrams, Challenger and Leopard IIA6.
''Next few months " ? This is a very big exaggeration and generalization .
That most of these tanks are ''superior '' to the Russian tanks is
a unproved as they have not fought against Russian tanks .
b irrelevant as they will not fight against Russian tanks .
It took 8 months to modernize 20 ! Moroccan tanks (the decision was taken in April 2022 ) and ''modernize '' is that imprecise that it is good for under the bus .The Moroccan tanks are 40 years old and were bought 23 years ago from Belarus .And why do you think that Belarus wanted to get rid of these tanks ?

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Aida1
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Re: The end of tanks as we know it?

#503

Post by Aida1 » 28 Jan 2023, 09:11

ljadw wrote:
28 Jan 2023, 09:02
Gooner1 wrote:
28 Jan 2023, 01:53
Delivered and forthcoming deliveries of tanks to Ukraine.

Not quite accurate. Poland are also planning on transferring 30 more T-72M1/M1R and 14 Leopard II. Morocco (!) are transferring 20 modernized T-72B.
Whilst 20 of the T-72EAs from Czechia have already been sent.

Image

I make that 227 new tanks scheduled for Ukraine in the next few months, though the Leopard II numbers are likely to rise.
Most of these are superior to the 'new' tanks Russia will be receiving, markedly so in the Abrams, Challenger and Leopard IIA6.
''Next few months " ? This is a very big exaggeration and generalization .
That most of these tanks are ''superior '' to the Russian tanks is
a unproved as they have not fought against Russian tanks .
b irrelevant as they will not fight against Russian tanks .
It took 8 months to modernize 20 ! Moroccan tanks (the decision was taken in April 2022 ) and ''modernize '' is that imprecise that it is good for under the bus .The Moroccan tanks are 40 years old and were bought 23 years ago from Belarus .And why do you think that Belarus wanted to get rid of these tanks ?
The usual contrarian nonsense without any proof. :lol: :lol:

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Re: The end of tanks as we know it?

#504

Post by ljadw » 28 Jan 2023, 09:13

Tom Peters wrote:
28 Jan 2023, 02:12
ljadw wrote:
27 Jan 2023, 10:49
Today's tanks are not more reliable than the tanks of WW2
Got any proof of that ? mean time between major overhauls ? Typical engine lifetime ? barrel longevity ? Anything ?

Mad Dog
How long took it to ''modernize '' ( modernize is not make operational ) 20 Moroccan tanks ?
After the fall of Saddam Iraq received 140 tanks and in December 2014 only 40 of these were still operational .
The Moroccan tanks were not used in combat and still were not operational .After 700 miles the rubber of a MBT must be replaced,after 2000 miles major repair is needed,for one hour of operations a M1A1 tank needs 8 man hours of maintenance, cost to maintain one Abrams for one year = $ 300,000.
During the Polish campaign half of German tanks were unavailable due to maintenance problems or enemy action .
It is not better today .

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Re: The end of tanks as we know it?

#505

Post by Aida1 » 28 Jan 2023, 10:23

ljadw wrote:
28 Jan 2023, 09:13
Tom Peters wrote:
28 Jan 2023, 02:12
ljadw wrote:
27 Jan 2023, 10:49
Today's tanks are not more reliable than the tanks of WW2
Got any proof of that ? mean time between major overhauls ? Typical engine lifetime ? barrel longevity ? Anything ?

Mad Dog
How long took it to ''modernize '' ( modernize is not make operational ) 20 Moroccan tanks ?
After the fall of Saddam Iraq received 140 tanks and in December 2014 only 40 of these were still operational .
The Moroccan tanks were not used in combat and still were not operational .After 700 miles the rubber of a MBT must be replaced,after 2000 miles major repair is needed,for one hour of operations a M1A1 tank needs 8 man hours of maintenance, cost to maintain one Abrams for one year = $ 300,000.
During the Polish campaign half of German tanks were unavailable due to maintenance problems or enemy action .
It is not better today .
You have no technical knowledge of tanks. Tanks needing maintenance is perfectly normal . Does not make them unreliable.

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Re: The end of tanks as we know it?

#506

Post by ljadw » 28 Jan 2023, 11:30

8 hours maintenance for 1 hour of operations means very low reliability and it means also that the number of operation hours is very limited ,which debunks the claims of tanks being decisive .
How many tanks are needed to have 100 operational tanks ?
14 Leo2A4 is not 14 operational Leo2A4 ,thus the number of tanks promised to Ukraine is totally meaningless .

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Re: The end of tanks as we know it?

#507

Post by Aida1 » 28 Jan 2023, 14:45

ljadw wrote:
28 Jan 2023, 11:30
8 hours maintenance for 1 hour of operations means very low reliability and it means also that the number of operation hours is very limited ,which debunks the claims of tanks being decisive .
How many tanks are needed to have 100 operational tanks ?
14 Leo2A4 is not 14 operational Leo2A4 ,thus the number of tanks promised to Ukraine is totally meaningless .
The usual contrarian nonsense. :lol: :lol: There are always enough operational tanks to get the job done. You should read some military books instead of spewing out nonsense. :lol: :lol:

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Re: The end of tanks as we know it?

#508

Post by Gooner1 » 28 Jan 2023, 15:15

ljadw wrote:
28 Jan 2023, 09:02
[
''Next few months " ? This is a very big exaggeration and generalization .
That most of these tanks are ''superior '' to the Russian tanks is
For other people's benefit:

6/12/22
"Last week, we had the opportunity to visit the Excalibur Army plant in Šternberg, where a presentation of part of the current portfolio of military equipment that the Czech company produces or is modernizing was held, including equipment that is already or in the near future will be sent to the Ukrainian army in the fight against Russian aggression.
Thus, we had the opportunity to see, for example. The modernization carried out by the Šternberg company provides the tank crew with, for example, higher protection in the form of installation of reactive armour (ERA – Explosive Reactive Armour), a new communication system (from MESIT), the tank has better ergonomics of vehicle control (new digital dashboard) or more sophisticated equipment for not only night vision (anti-laser eye protection, the driver has a thermal vision with optical elements allowing tenfold zoom and the gunner has a night vision with the same optical parameters) and as part of the modernization, the engine power was also increased from 780 hp to 840. 11 of these tanks have already been shipped to Ukraine (Excalibur Army has delivered a total of 27 tanks to Ukraine since the beginning of the year), where today 9 units (1 unit was reportedly destroyed and 1 unit was captured in September) of these tanks are successfully fighting. A total of 90 T-72EA tanks (+ an option for another 30 tanks) are then agreed for production for Ukraine, to be jointly financed by the United States and the Netherlands. The T-72 tanks to be upgraded to T-72EA come from the mobilization stocks of the former Warsaw Pact countries (these are non-functional T-72 units in the base, T-72M and T-72M1), with one unit of these tanks being completed every 4 days to the upgraded T-72EA version.
The original tanks are completely disassembled, inspected, selected parts are replaced, a complete engine overhaul takes place, and new modernization components are delivered (optics, wiring harnesses, reactive armor, etc.). The next batch of US and Dutch funded upgrades will then go to Ukraine this week."

https://www.czdefence.com/article/czech ... nst-russia

ljadw
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Re: The end of tanks as we know it?

#509

Post by ljadw » 28 Jan 2023, 17:30

Gooner1 wrote:
28 Jan 2023, 15:15
ljadw wrote:
28 Jan 2023, 09:02
[
''Next few months " ? This is a very big exaggeration and generalization .
That most of these tanks are ''superior '' to the Russian tanks is
For other people's benefit:

6/12/22
"Last week, we had the opportunity to visit the Excalibur Army plant in Šternberg, where a presentation of part of the current portfolio of military equipment that the Czech company produces or is modernizing was held, including equipment that is already or in the near future will be sent to the Ukrainian army in the fight against Russian aggression.
Thus, we had the opportunity to see, for example. The modernization carried out by the Šternberg company provides the tank crew with, for example, higher protection in the form of installation of reactive armour (ERA – Explosive Reactive Armour), a new communication system (from MESIT), the tank has better ergonomics of vehicle control (new digital dashboard) or more sophisticated equipment for not only night vision (anti-laser eye protection, the driver has a thermal vision with optical elements allowing tenfold zoom and the gunner has a night vision with the same optical parameters) and as part of the modernization, the engine power was also increased from 780 hp to 840. 11 of these tanks have already been shipped to Ukraine (Excalibur Army has delivered a total of 27 tanks to Ukraine since the beginning of the year), where today 9 units (1 unit was reportedly destroyed and 1 unit was captured in September) of these tanks are successfully fighting. A total of 90 T-72EA tanks (+ an option for another 30 tanks) are then agreed for production for Ukraine, to be jointly financed by the United States and the Netherlands. The T-72 tanks to be upgraded to T-72EA come from the mobilization stocks of the former Warsaw Pact countries (these are non-functional T-72 units in the base, T-72M and T-72M1), with one unit of these tanks being completed every 4 days to the upgraded T-72EA version.
The original tanks are completely disassembled, inspected, selected parts are replaced, a complete engine overhaul takes place, and new modernization components are delivered (optics, wiring harnesses, reactive armor, etc.). The next batch of US and Dutch funded upgrades will then go to Ukraine this week."

https://www.czdefence.com/article/czech ... nst-russia
All this des not prove that these tanks are superior to the Russian tanks.
And, what is it now ?
a 11 tanks shipped to Ukraine ?
or b 27 tanks delivered to Ukraine ?
That 90 T-72 EA tanks are agreed for production to Ukraine is also totally meaningless :how long will it take before these 90 tanks are and operating in Ukraine and are manned and are having the needed fuel,the needed ammunition,the needed spare parts ,the needed mechanics,and the needed infantry and artillery .
If every day one of these tanks is becoming operational it will take weeks before they are available to the Ukrainians ,and, if the Russians attack before they are available ,what is the use of these tanks ?
Why should anyone believe the propaganda of the Excalibur Army plant ?
The fact that these tanks must be completely be disassembled,proves that they are only useless wrecks that are 40 years old .

ljadw
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Re: The end of tanks as we know it?

#510

Post by ljadw » 28 Jan 2023, 17:53

From Kake abc com 26 January 2023
''Ukraine's new tanks wont't be the instant game-changer some expect .''
''It will take months to transfer the Abrams tanks and 8 months or more to see them in combat .''
Do you think that the Russians will wait 8 months to start a new offensive ?
Besides : why would Ukraine need Leos and Abrams ?
They did it well without them and the Russians did it badly with a numerical tank superiority .There is no proof that if Ukraine had Leos and Abrams a year ago ,the whole of Ukraine would be liberated and that if the Russians had such tanks, they would now be at the Polish and Romanian borders .
Thus ,there is no need to believe any word from the tank lobby .

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