news from Russo-Ukraine Front

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Aida1
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Re: news from Russo-Ukraine Front

#4021

Post by Aida1 » 01 Apr 2023, 09:50

Michael Kenny wrote:
31 Mar 2023, 19:08
Tom Peters wrote:
31 Mar 2023, 18:40


We should thank Putin for working so hard in getting Finland and Sweden to join NATO.
It pales in comparison to the catastrophic US Foreign policy blunder of uniting Russia and China.
Only in your imagination.

Michael Kenny
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Re: news from Russo-Ukraine Front

#4022

Post by Michael Kenny » 01 Apr 2023, 10:05

Aida1 wrote:
01 Apr 2023, 09:46


Typical falsification of history . The US did execute daylight raids in ww2 in order to try to hit specific targets with the technology then available. More successful than what the british did.

You really have not got a clue.

From Carl A. Spaatz and the Air War in Europe by Richard G. Davis. Smithsonian Institution Press, , 1994.

A further look at Eighth Air Force operations has revealed two egregious
examples of the gap between bombing practice and stated bombing policy: the
target categories “city areas” and “marshaling yards.”
The two most cited Eighth
Air Force statistical summaries that cover the entire war do not list a target cate-
gory “city areas” or “towns and cities.” Both summaries were prepared from
the same set of data within a month of the end of the war in Europe.
Monthly statistical summaries of the Eighth’s operations prepared during the
war, almost contemporaneously with the events they recorded, tell a different
story. The Eighth Air Force Monthly Statistical Summary of Operations, gener-
ated at the end of each month from May 1944 to April 1945, listed a “city areas”
target category. For calendar year 1944, the summary reported that the Eighth
dropped 43,611 tons on “city areas.” Nor did these reports make any bones
about their targets. The report for the May 8, 1944, Berlin raid baldly states,
“Berlin city area attacked. Bombing raid done through 10/10 undercast on PFF
markers. Believed that the center of Berlin was well hit.”
After reaching a
high of 9,886 tons (41 percent incendiaries) in July 1944, when the Eighth con-
ducted a series of H2X raids on Munich, the monthly “city area” totals steadily
declined to 383 tons in December.
A summary in a working paper from a USSTAF file, “Review of Bombing
Results,” shows a similar dichotomy according to time period. From January
1944 through January 1945, the Eighth dropped 45,036 tons on “towns and
cities.” From February 1945 through the end of the war, this summary
showed not a single ton of bombs falling on a city area. Unless the Eighth had
developed a perfect technique for bombing through overcast, such a result was
simply impossible. Obviously, the word had come down to deemphasize reports
on civilian damage
.
For instance, when Anderson cabled Arnold about USSTAF’s
press policy on the Dresden controversy in February 1945, he noted, “Public rela-
tions officers have been advised to take exceptional care that the military nature
of targets attacked in the future be specified and emphasized in all cases
. As in
the past the statement that an attack was made on such and such a city will be
avoided; specific targets will be described.”

The U.S. Strategic Bombing Survey, although not explicitly listing a target
category such as cities or towns, had an interesting definition of “industrial
areas.” The survey placed three types of targets in “industrial areas”: (1) cities,
towns, and urban areas; (2) public utilities (electric, gas, water, and telephone
companies); and (3) government buildings. Given that definition the survey even
managed to describe RAF area raids as strikes against “industrial targets.”
The target category “marshaling yards” received more of the Eighth’s bomb
tonnage than any other, somewhere between 175,000 and 200,000 tons of bombs.
At least 25 percent of all the Eighth Air Force bombs dropped over Europe fell on
“marshaling yards.” One-third of the American incendiary bombs dropped over
Germany fell on the same system. As a matter of directive and policy for most
of the period between September 1944 and April 1945, the same period in which
the Eighth delivered 90 percent of the total tonnage dropped on the system, mar-
shaling yards had the highest nonvisual bombing priority. During that period the
Eighth Air Force dropped 168,038 tons of bombs, 70 percent (117,816 tons)
blind
and 30 percent (50,222 tons) visually. Postwar research showed that
only 2 percent of bombs dropped by nonvisual means landed within 1,000 feet
of their aiming points.
Rail yards as such, however, were poor targets for
incendiaries. If the fire bombs landed directly on or near rail cars, they destroyed
or damaged them; otherwise, they could do little harm to the heavy equipment or
trackage. The Eighth realized this. Of the 9,042 tons of bombs dropped on
French rail yards, mostly during the pre-OVERLORD transportation bombing
phase, when the Americans took scrupulous care to avoid French civilian casual-
ties, 90 percent were visually sighted and only 33 tons were incendiaries.
Even over Germany itself, during Operation CLARION, when the Eighth bombed
dozens of small yards and junctions in lesser German towns, it dropped, over a
two-day period of visual conditions, 7,164 tons of bombs in all, but less than 3
tons of fire bombs.
In contrast, using H2X, the Eighth pummeled marshaling yards and rail sta-
tions in large German cities with high percentages of incendiary bombs. For
example, rail targets in at least four major cities garnered the following percent-
ages of fire bombs out of all bombs dropped on them: Cologne, 27 percent;
Nuremberg, 30 percent; Berlin, 37 percent; and Munich, 41 percent.
“Marshaling yards” undoubtedly served as a euphemism for city areas.
Because the yards themselves were not good targets for incendiaries, the prime purpose
in employing such weapons was to take advantage of the known inaccuracy of
H2X bombing in order to maximize the destruction of warehouses, commercial
buildings, and residences in the general vicinity of the target. Large numbers of
planes scattering their bombs around their mostly unseen and unverifiable aim-
ing points surely would cause great collateral damage to any soft structures
located nearby.


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Aida1
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Re: news from Russo-Ukraine Front

#4023

Post by Aida1 » 01 Apr 2023, 10:16

Michael Kenny wrote:
01 Apr 2023, 10:05
Aida1 wrote:
01 Apr 2023, 09:46


Typical falsification of history . The US did execute daylight raids in ww2 in order to try to hit specific targets with the technology then available. More successful than what the british did.

You really have not got a clue.

From Carl A. Spaatz and the Air War in Europe by Richard G. Davis. Smithsonian Institution Press, , 1994.

A further look at Eighth Air Force operations has revealed two egregious
examples of the gap between bombing practice and stated bombing policy: the
target categories “city areas” and “marshaling yards.”
The two most cited Eighth
Air Force statistical summaries that cover the entire war do not list a target cate-
gory “city areas” or “towns and cities.” Both summaries were prepared from
the same set of data within a month of the end of the war in Europe.
Monthly statistical summaries of the Eighth’s operations prepared during the
war, almost contemporaneously with the events they recorded, tell a different
story. The Eighth Air Force Monthly Statistical Summary of Operations, gener-
ated at the end of each month from May 1944 to April 1945, listed a “city areas”
target category. For calendar year 1944, the summary reported that the Eighth
dropped 43,611 tons on “city areas.” Nor did these reports make any bones
about their targets. The report for the May 8, 1944, Berlin raid baldly states,
“Berlin city area attacked. Bombing raid done through 10/10 undercast on PFF
markers. Believed that the center of Berlin was well hit.”
After reaching a
high of 9,886 tons (41 percent incendiaries) in July 1944, when the Eighth con-
ducted a series of H2X raids on Munich, the monthly “city area” totals steadily
declined to 383 tons in December.
A summary in a working paper from a USSTAF file, “Review of Bombing
Results,” shows a similar dichotomy according to time period. From January
1944 through January 1945, the Eighth dropped 45,036 tons on “towns and
cities.” From February 1945 through the end of the war, this summary
showed not a single ton of bombs falling on a city area. Unless the Eighth had
developed a perfect technique for bombing through overcast, such a result was
simply impossible. Obviously, the word had come down to deemphasize reports
on civilian damage
.
For instance, when Anderson cabled Arnold about USSTAF’s
press policy on the Dresden controversy in February 1945, he noted, “Public rela-
tions officers have been advised to take exceptional care that the military nature
of targets attacked in the future be specified and emphasized in all cases
. As in
the past the statement that an attack was made on such and such a city will be
avoided; specific targets will be described.”

The U.S. Strategic Bombing Survey, although not explicitly listing a target
category such as cities or towns, had an interesting definition of “industrial
areas.” The survey placed three types of targets in “industrial areas”: (1) cities,
towns, and urban areas; (2) public utilities (electric, gas, water, and telephone
companies); and (3) government buildings. Given that definition the survey even
managed to describe RAF area raids as strikes against “industrial targets.”
The target category “marshaling yards” received more of the Eighth’s bomb
tonnage than any other, somewhere between 175,000 and 200,000 tons of bombs.
At least 25 percent of all the Eighth Air Force bombs dropped over Europe fell on
“marshaling yards.” One-third of the American incendiary bombs dropped over
Germany fell on the same system. As a matter of directive and policy for most
of the period between September 1944 and April 1945, the same period in which
the Eighth delivered 90 percent of the total tonnage dropped on the system, mar-
shaling yards had the highest nonvisual bombing priority. During that period the
Eighth Air Force dropped 168,038 tons of bombs, 70 percent (117,816 tons)
blind
and 30 percent (50,222 tons) visually. Postwar research showed that
only 2 percent of bombs dropped by nonvisual means landed within 1,000 feet
of their aiming points.
Rail yards as such, however, were poor targets for
incendiaries. If the fire bombs landed directly on or near rail cars, they destroyed
or damaged them; otherwise, they could do little harm to the heavy equipment or
trackage. The Eighth realized this. Of the 9,042 tons of bombs dropped on
French rail yards, mostly during the pre-OVERLORD transportation bombing
phase, when the Americans took scrupulous care to avoid French civilian casual-
ties, 90 percent were visually sighted and only 33 tons were incendiaries.
Even over Germany itself, during Operation CLARION, when the Eighth bombed
dozens of small yards and junctions in lesser German towns, it dropped, over a
two-day period of visual conditions, 7,164 tons of bombs in all, but less than 3
tons of fire bombs.
In contrast, using H2X, the Eighth pummeled marshaling yards and rail sta-
tions in large German cities with high percentages of incendiary bombs. For
example, rail targets in at least four major cities garnered the following percent-
ages of fire bombs out of all bombs dropped on them: Cologne, 27 percent;
Nuremberg, 30 percent; Berlin, 37 percent; and Munich, 41 percent.
“Marshaling yards” undoubtedly served as a euphemism for city areas.
Because the yards themselves were not good targets for incendiaries, the prime purpose
in employing such weapons was to take advantage of the known inaccuracy of
H2X bombing in order to maximize the destruction of warehouses, commercial
buildings, and residences in the general vicinity of the target. Large numbers of
planes scattering their bombs around their mostly unseen and unverifiable aim-
ing points surely would cause great collateral damage to any soft structures
located nearby.
The US aif force made a much better effort in executing more precise attacks by executing dayllight raids with the limited technology then available. The british simply did terror attacks.

Berto
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Posts: 172
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Location: Italy

Re: news from Russo-Ukraine Front

#4024

Post by Berto » 01 Apr 2023, 12:18

Gooner1 wrote:
01 Apr 2023, 01:35
Berto wrote:
31 Mar 2023, 23:44

Hmm my dear friend, which countries has China invaded in the last, shall we say, forty years?
Depending on your definition there is Hong Kong and Macau.

Certainly there citizens never gave the impression they'd rather be part of the PRC until their takeover ...
Come on, those two cities returned under full Chinese control - after a long period in which they were among the last relics of the colonial era - as per international agreements with the previous 'owners'. I do not recall any armed resistance on part of the citizens, or any international authority condemning China for taking them back.

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Empiricist
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Joined: 03 Jun 2021, 12:22
Location: European Union

Re: news from Russo-Ukraine Front

#4025

Post by Empiricist » 01 Apr 2023, 13:32

Highly modernized Ukrainian MiG-29. Western MFD is mounted on instrument panel. Two Soviet R-60M AAMs can be seen but fighter can carry Western missiles as well.

Souvenir for Russian scum.

https://twitter.com/KpsZSU/status/16420 ... 2n78ktAAAA

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peeved
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Posts: 9109
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Location: Finland

Re: news from Russo-Ukraine Front

#4026

Post by peeved » 01 Apr 2023, 13:37

Cult Icon wrote:
01 Apr 2023, 04:57
Martin_from_Valhalla wrote:
01 Apr 2023, 02:06
Everyone thought so in the beginning and I was telling everyone that this war will last for years while Putin is alive.
For 3 months the Ukrainian military and political leadership kept claiming that the Russians would launch a strategic offensive in Jan-March 2023. Turns out these were more lies and disinformation to encourage more western aid.

It turns out that the Russian army canceled the winter offensive, skipped sending brigades to Ukraine and just jumped straight into building divisions.
Image

Markus

Globalization41
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Joined: 13 Mar 2002, 03:52
Location: California

Re: news from Russo-Ukraine Front

#4027

Post by Globalization41 » 01 Apr 2023, 14:33

Hate America Propaganda

The above link was posted earlier by Cult Icon. ... Actually, America is the mother of China's prosperity. China was an illiterate peasant society prior to the U.S. redistributing many of its revenue-generating factories away from American soil to avoid taxes and high labor costs. Now, Xi is acting like the Menendez brothers.

Globalization41.

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Empiricist
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Location: European Union

Re: news from Russo-Ukraine Front

#4028

Post by Empiricist » 01 Apr 2023, 14:42

A hundred of the Polish Rosomaks for Ukraine.

https://twitter.com/PStyle0ne1/status/1 ... _o_MktAAAA

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wm
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Re: news from Russo-Ukraine Front

#4029

Post by wm » 01 Apr 2023, 14:44

Globalization41 wrote:
01 Apr 2023, 14:33
Hate America Propaganda

The above link was posted earlier by Cult Icon. ... Actually, America is the mother of China's prosperity. China was an illiterate peasant society prior to the U.S. redistributing many of its revenue-generating factories away from American soil to avoid taxes and high labor costs. Now, Xi is acting like the Menendez brothers.

Globalization41.
Even more, America saved China from disintegration as result of the Japanese invasion in the thirties.
Pearl Harbor literally happened because America tried to help the suffering, cute Chinese.

ljadw
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Posts: 15584
Joined: 13 Jul 2009, 18:50

Re: news from Russo-Ukraine Front

#4030

Post by ljadw » 01 Apr 2023, 14:45

Aida1 wrote:
01 Apr 2023, 09:46
ljadw wrote:
31 Mar 2023, 12:35
Aida1 wrote:
30 Mar 2023, 12:16
Michael Kenny wrote:
29 Mar 2023, 03:25
waldopepper wrote:
29 Mar 2023, 03:16


Your sentence is quite misleading. The article you cited says that the US command knew that the shelter had been used as a civilian bomb shelter but believed it had been converted to a command center and targeted it as such. The US does not knowingly bomb civilian targets but in war mistakes are made. This is a far cry from the Russian pervasive, intentional and repeated targeting of civilian infrastructure in Ukraine.
Mistakes?
Why not use the word invented to sanitise the killing of civilians. Did you not get the message about 'Collaterally Damage?
Have another go and tell us about the Granai airstrike.
You are not credible given your support for Putin. Western countries have strict rules of engagement and limit civilian casualties to the minimum. Civialian casualties are inevitable in war but there is a big difference between the indiscrminate bombing practiced by Russia and using precision strikes .
Precision attacks as in Hamburg, Dresden, Berlin, Mortsel, Kortrijk ,Syria, Irak, Afghanistan,Vietnam,... :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:
Typical falsification of history . The US did execute daylight raids in ww2 in order to try to hit specific targets with the technology then available. More successful than what the british did. In post ww2 conflicts there was better technology to limit the inevitable collateral damage. There certainly never were indiscrimInate attacks by the US in modern conflicts.
All air attacks are indiscriminate :see the picture of the Vietnamese girl running away in 1972 from a napalm explosion .
See operation Linebacker 2, see the 2009 Gaza war.
There are no precise air attacks : air attacks always kill civilians and as long as civilians are not deliberately killed, there is no problem . 20 % of the victims of US surgical (haha ) drones attacks in the ME were civilians .
What falsification of history is is to say that A is doing indiscriminate air attacks and B precision air attacks .There is also no proof that US daylight air attacks ( RAF also did daylight air attacks ) were more successful and killed less civilians than RAF night attacks .
The daylight air attacks on Schweinfurt caused the USAAF big losses and the LW had only low losses .
The daylight air attacks on Japanese cities caused big civilian losses .
The air attack on Baghouz (Syria ) in March 2019 killed 80 people of which 64 civilians ( 80 % ) and 16 ISIS members .
2019 ! ,74 years after WW2 .
Our media remained silent . But, when Russian air attacks resulted 3 years later in civilian Ukrainian losses, the storm of the media hypocrites was enormous .

ljadw
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Posts: 15584
Joined: 13 Jul 2009, 18:50

Re: news from Russo-Ukraine Front

#4031

Post by ljadw » 01 Apr 2023, 14:48

wm wrote:
01 Apr 2023, 14:44
Globalization41 wrote:
01 Apr 2023, 14:33
Hate America Propaganda

The above link was posted earlier by Cult Icon. ... Actually, America is the mother of China's prosperity. China was an illiterate peasant society prior to the U.S. redistributing many of its revenue-generating factories away from American soil to avoid taxes and high labor costs. Now, Xi is acting like the Menendez brothers.

Globalization41.
Even more, America saved China from disintegration as result of the Japanese invasion in the thirties.
Pearl Harbor literally happened because America tried to help the suffering, cute Chinese.
This was NOT the cause of PH ,
Besides :US did not help the suffering cute Chinese during the rape of Nanking .US helped the not suffering and non cute Japanese .
And US did not save Chine from disintegration .

Globalization41
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Re: news from Russo-Ukraine Front

#4032

Post by Globalization41 » 01 Apr 2023, 15:38

Regardless of its intensions, the U.S. was unable to help in Nanking due to logistics.

Globalization41.

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Yuri
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Re: news from Russo-Ukraine Front

#4033

Post by Yuri » 01 Apr 2023, 15:41

Tom Peters wrote:
31 Mar 2023, 23:45
Michael Kenny wrote:
31 Mar 2023, 22:33


What about bombing counties (that don't love you) since 1945

USA Bombings

list snipped
I would suggest to start a thread for those topics ("whatboutisms").

For here, we try to keep the subject to the RU invasion of UKR.

Mad Dog
In fairness, it should be said that the topic has a different name, namely:
"news from Russo-Ukraine Front"

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Empiricist
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Re: news from Russo-Ukraine Front

#4034

Post by Empiricist » 01 Apr 2023, 15:44

Globalization41 wrote:
01 Apr 2023, 14:33
Actually, America is the mother of China's prosperity.
That's right, unfortunately. I am European, but I do have my family in Texas and I love the USA. But.. it was American strategic blunder what was done towards China. At their own request the USA were bred the Chinese monster.

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Yuri
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Re: news from Russo-Ukraine Front

#4035

Post by Yuri » 01 Apr 2023, 15:49

Tom Peters wrote:
31 Mar 2023, 18:36
Michael Kenny wrote:
30 Mar 2023, 07:18

I hear that moves are afoot to make the above a new verse in the song 'Scarborough Fair' ..........
Sadly, I am missing context for that reference.

Today, if you had to choose to invest between RU and the US, which would you choose ?

Mad Dog
Time to move to Russia.

Dear Tom!
I noticed that you asked this question several times. The topic of investment is not the topic of this thread. Earlier, in response to your call to the members of the forum to stick to the stated topic here, I voted "Yes". In this regard, I will disclose the topic of investment only with your permission.

P.S.
Does your browser allow a function that provides simultaneous translation of videos from Russian into English?
If not, then try installing the Russian Yandex browser, which has the function of simultaneous translation of videos.
I propose to debug this option (if you install Yandex) here is this video about David Henderson-Stewart.

David Henderson-Stewart: "I do not know a single foreigner who would not be interested in living in Russia."
David's father is English and his mother is French, he previously lived in London and Paris. He came to Russia 17 years ago.
David's children go to an ordinary public school in Moscow. For one year, children are sent to study in England. David's son studied in England in the sixth grade.
According to his son, at the first lesson in mathematics at an English school there was a control task, two hours were allotted for answering questions. David's son answered all questions in 20 minutes. When he handed over his answers to the teacher, he, not knowing that the guy studied in Moscow, asked: “What did you study at the Russian school?”.
David Henderson-Stewart has invested in the production of watches brand "Rocket". The sanctions allowed him to expand his business.

Tour of the farm of the cheerful milkman
Russia Guy

Here, the American Justus Walker bought 100 hectares of land in Altai (south of Western Siberia), built a house and breeds cows, sheep and goats, and collects Ivan-tea in the mountains.
According to Justus Walker, it costs as much to build a house in Russia as in the USA it is necessary to pay for the permission of the authorities to build such a house.
For 100 hectares of land and all buildings on the Justus Walker farm, pay a tax of 10,000 rubles per year (approximately $150).
For comparison, in Ukraine, only for 100 hectares of land, the tax will be 5,000 US dollars.
Justus Walker was visited by an Australian family (father, mother and two adult children - a son and a daughter), who intend to acquire land in Altai.
At the moment the Australian family lives in Novosibirsk (neighboring Altai region), they are studying Russian, the daughter has already passed the exam for the degree of "native speaker of Russian" and thus she is eligible to apply for Russian citizenship.

I was in Altai several times during the Soviet era and I can tell you why you should invest in Altai not only in agriculture. I believe that in the light of the current development of the military-political situation in the world, investments in Altai can bring enormous profits.
In the mountainous part of Altai there is Lake Teletskoye (amazing beauty), in the vicinity of this lake there is an emergency entrance to Shambhala (the main entrance, as you know, is in Tibet). There is also a cave in which there is a tomb with the body of a princess (her age is several thousand years). This princess protects from all epidemics, and, for example, in 2020, during the COVID-19 epidemic, the British ambassador left for Altai with his families. None of the ambassador's family members fell ill, despite the fact that they did not wear masks.

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