The Iron Wall

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COmentator
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Re: The Iron Wall

Post by COmentator » 09 Feb 2024 02:15

warsaw Ghetto Uprisng the germans had
3 2.28-cm A.A.guns: 2/24 (Light Flak Artillery Alarm Battery 3/8 Warschau: 2/22)
1 French tank of the Waffen-SS:
2 Heavy armored cars of the Waffen-SS:
5 Panzer and 1 Cavalry Training Battalions 2 Battalions from SS Police Regiments 1 Battalion of Ex USSR POWS;
The Jewish Fighting groups were never united the old Labor-Revenist quarrel
zOB got more press being leftist/Marxist (SImilar to the BG Goverment) while very few of the ZZW survived the war

The majority of the German casualites only came with the first 4 days....ZZW was nearly wiped out and the suriviviors had to flee.
the rest of the days except for occasional German casualites...is when the masses from the Ghetto were taken to be shot or sent to their doom

Globalization41
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Re: The Iron Wall

Post by Globalization41 » 12 Feb 2024 15:13

Thanks WM & COmentator. The Warsaw Ghetto uprising occurred in the Spring of 1943. The 1944 report from a year later greatly exaggerated the story of the battle. Another case of framing the guilty. I looked for any reports from 1943, but the loss of communications from the Ghetto was about the only thing I could find. One report from 1943 mentioned that the Nazis used MGs and explosives to clear the Ghetto.

Warsaw Ghetto, Wikipedia

Warsaw Ghetto Uprising, Wikipedia

Follows are the Nazi and Jewish casualty totals submitted by the 1943 operational commander General Stroop:

19 April: 1 killed, 24 wounded; 580 captured
20 April: 3 killed, 10 wounded; 533 captured
21 April: 0 killed, 5 wounded; 5,200 captured
22 April: 3 killed, 1 wounded; 6,580 captured; 203 "Jews and bandits" killed; 35 Poles killed outside the Ghetto
23 April: 0 killed, 3 wounded; 4,100 captured; 200 "Jews and bandits" killed; 3 Jews captured outside the Ghetto. Total of 19,450 Jews reported caught
24 April: 0 killed, 3 wounded; 1,660 captured; 1,811 "pulled out of dugouts, about 330 shot".
25 April: 0 killed, 4 wounded; 1,690 captured; 274 shot; "very large portion of the bandits ... captured". Total of 27,464 Jews caught
26 April: 0 killed, 0 wounded; 1,722 captured; 1,330 "destroyed"; 362 Jews shot. 30 Jews "displaced". Total of 29,186 Jews captured
27 April: 0 killed, 4 wounded; 2,560 captured of whom 547 shot; 24 Polish "bandits killed in battle"; 52 Polish "bandits" arrested. Total of 31,746 Jews caught
28 April: 0 killed, 3 wounded; 1,655 captured of whom 110 killed; 10 "bandits" killed and 9 "arrested". Total of 33,401 Jews caught
29 April: 0 killed 0 wounded; 2,359 captured of whom 106 killed
30 April: 0 killed 0 wounded; 1,599 captured of whom 179 killed. Total of 37,359 Jews caught
1 May: 2 killed, 2 wounded; 1,026 captured of whom 245 killed. Total of 38,385 Jews caught; 150 killed outside the Ghetto
2 May: 0 killed, 7 wounded; 1,852 captured and 235 killed. Total of 40,237 Jews caught
3 May: 0 killed, 3 wounded; 1,569 captured and 95 killed. Total of 41,806 Jews caught
4 May: 0 killed, 0 wounded; 2,238 captured, of whom 204 shot. Total of 44,089 Jews caught
5 May: 0 killed, 2 wounded; 2,250 captured
6 May: 2 killed, 1 wounded; 1,553 captured; 356 shot
7 May: 0 killed, 1 wounded; 1,109 captured; 255 shot. Total of 45,342 Jews caught
8 May: 3 killed, 3 wounded; 1,091 captured and 280 killed; 60 "heavily armed bandits" caught
9 May: 0 killed, 0 wounded; 1,037 "Jews and bandits" caught and 319 "bandits and Jews" shot. Total of 51,313 Jews caught; 254 "Jews and bandits" shot outside the Ghetto
10 May: 0 killed, 4 wounded; 1,183 caught and 187 "bandits and Jews" shot. Total of 52,693 Jews caught
11 May: 1 killed, 2 wounded; 931 "Jews and bandits" caught and 53 "bandits" shot. Total of 53,667 Jews caught
12 May: 0 killed, 1 wounded; 663 caught and 133 shot. Total of 54,463 Jews caught
13 May: 2 killed, 4 wounded; 561 caught and 155 shot. Total of 55,179 Jews caught
14 May: 0 killed, 5 wounded; 398 caught and 154 "Jews and bandits" shot. Total of 55,731 Jews caught
15 May: 0 killed, 1 wounded; 87 caught and 67 "bandits and Jews" shot. Total of 56,885 Jews caught
16 May: 0 killed, 0 wounded; 180 "Jews, bandits and subhumans destroyed". Total of 57,065 Jews either captured or killed

... ... As WWII wound down, German troops were more willing to surrender to western Allies (due to perceived treatment) than to the Red Army, thus saving countless lives.

Globalization41.

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wm
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Re: The Iron Wall

Post by wm » 19 Feb 2024 03:25

Globalization41 wrote:
08 Feb 2024 17:40
(Comments on Posts 234 & 235.) If you say the details of the Warsaw Ghetto battle were overexaggerated WM and you're familiar with the story, then I'll go along with you. The 1944 story about the battle described the event a year later, plenty of time for "urban myths" to become established. ... F.D.R. and his V.P. Wallace (who Roosevelt dropped from the "44 ticket in favor of Truman) were admirers and fans of Stalin, who's theories were music to their ears. The U.S. and the U.S.S.R. were allies. The long-term effects of mistruths supporting propaganda versions of the war were not yet understood. ... Don't know who said it, but "War stories are like fine wine, they get better with age". ... The book review ends this way:

But this must be said. The book didn't uncover any new facts about the uprising. That the first reports were unreliable was known early on and they were rejected.
The only "victims" of the reports are readers of old wartime newspapers (but they are still sometimes repeated in Jewish media).
The book uncovered the post-war machinations designed to gain fame and veteran benefits. Although some facts were manufactured post-war too, they were of minor historical importance.

Globalization41
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Re: The Iron Wall

Post by Globalization41 » 21 Feb 2024 13:54

Actually, the exaggerated reports appeared in 1944, a year after the Jewish uprising in Warsaw. The 1943 reports vaguely claimed the Nazis used MGs and explosives to clear the ghetto. The confidential Stroop report doesn't mention what happen to the captured Jews. ... There were some reports saying the ghetto had already been eliminated before it had actually been wiped out. ... To say that the first reports are unreliable and result in "victims" believing misleading exaggerations is in itself slightly misleading. There were numerous early reports during WWII of atrocities committed against Jews (and Poles). In general, first reports give a better strategic sense of the situation without 20-20 hindsight. ... Historians are often more inclined to deal with important tactical narratives. ... The first reports of the Katyn massacre indicated the Soviets did it. Later reports said the Nazis did it.

Globalization41.

LineDoggie
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Re: The Iron Wall

Post by LineDoggie » 22 Feb 2024 23:56

Globalization41 wrote:
21 Feb 2024 13:54
The first reports of the Katyn massacre indicated the Soviets did it. Later reports said the Nazis did it.

Globalization41.
Yeah those later reports were soviet reports there is no doubt Katyn was perpetrated by the NKVD of the Soviet Union
"There are two kinds of people who are staying on this beach: those who are dead and those who are going to die. Now let’s get the hell out of here".
Col. George Taylor, 16th Infantry Regiment, Omaha Beach

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