http://www.aoi.com.au/bcw/neanderbasque.htm
How the Neanderthals became the Basques
- Sewer King
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Intriguing. This is the first I have ever heard of this theory. It reminds me a little of the idea that the Rom (Gypsies) are Indo-European remnants or offshoots. But I don't know if there is or could be the same kind of genetic and historical study to bear it out for them.
Twenty-six years ago a visiting priest in my church parish, in New York City's Harlem, was the only Basque I ever met. He acquainted me with the singularity of the Basque language and identity. I have since met and worked with a number of Kurds, and they remind of that Basque -- warm, hospitable mountain people with a historical awareness and pride in their fierce heritage. Although those things are likely more due to their experiences as embattled nations of people.
If they are anthropological remnants, why did the Basques come to "hold out" in the Pyrenees region in particular? Certainly the European plains north and south of the Alps were taken up by others in the grand picture. But I would have thought that the Neanderthal population might not have been that large at its height, so all odds would have been against such a survival.
This theory and all the references given here are a lot to peruse, so I'll have to look for some possibilities that they might cover. I liked Kurlansky's book Salt: A World History, so would be interested in his one about the Basques.
Twenty-six years ago a visiting priest in my church parish, in New York City's Harlem, was the only Basque I ever met. He acquainted me with the singularity of the Basque language and identity. I have since met and worked with a number of Kurds, and they remind of that Basque -- warm, hospitable mountain people with a historical awareness and pride in their fierce heritage. Although those things are likely more due to their experiences as embattled nations of people.
If they are anthropological remnants, why did the Basques come to "hold out" in the Pyrenees region in particular? Certainly the European plains north and south of the Alps were taken up by others in the grand picture. But I would have thought that the Neanderthal population might not have been that large at its height, so all odds would have been against such a survival.
This theory and all the references given here are a lot to peruse, so I'll have to look for some possibilities that they might cover. I liked Kurlansky's book Salt: A World History, so would be interested in his one about the Basques.
Here is a map showing distribution of Basques, from
"Indo-European Origins in Southeast Europe by Dienekes Pontikos" http://www.geocities.com/dienekesp2/ind ... index.html)
Map 1 European language distribution at the climax of the Ice Age and the following period, 23,000 to 8,000 BC (Ba = Basque, U = Uralic, X's = unknown languages)
Note that the Finn-Uralic population area shown has been compressed in area to approximately present day Finland/Estonia.
And a map showing the Range of Neaderthals (based on fossil finds):
http://anthro.palomar.edu/homo2/images/ ... _range.gif
"Indo-European Origins in Southeast Europe by Dienekes Pontikos" http://www.geocities.com/dienekesp2/ind ... index.html)
Map 1 European language distribution at the climax of the Ice Age and the following period, 23,000 to 8,000 BC (Ba = Basque, U = Uralic, X's = unknown languages)
Note that the Finn-Uralic population area shown has been compressed in area to approximately present day Finland/Estonia.
And a map showing the Range of Neaderthals (based on fossil finds):
http://anthro.palomar.edu/homo2/images/ ... _range.gif
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It's not a "theory," it is a fantasy. The weight of the scientific evidence suggests that cro-magnon and neandertal diverged and had very little, if any at all, genetic intermingling after that. There is no scientific evidence to suggest that any modern ethnic group has any relationship to the neandertals at all. Good grief.
pitman said:
From the first of 292,00 sources found in a Google search, using neanderthal and genes
http://cogweb.ucla.edu/ep/Neanderthal.html
You are out of date.It's not a "theory," it is a fantasy. The weight of the scientific evidence suggests that cro-magnon and neandertal diverged and had very little, if any at all, genetic intermingling after that. There is no scientific evidence to suggest that any modern ethnic group has any relationship to the neandertals at all. Good grief.
From the first of 292,00 sources found in a Google search, using neanderthal and genes
http://cogweb.ucla.edu/ep/Neanderthal.html
I am afraid that I am very much up to date, although that 1999 article is not. The conclusions by Trinkaus and his collaborator about the Portugal skeleton--based only interpretation of physical characteristics and no genetic analysis--are not widely accepted (indeed, even the publication of their findings was accompanied by a very rare rebuttal in the same issue of the scientific journal in which it appeared). And mitochondrial DNA analysis suggests a wide separation between Neanderthal and Cro-Magnon, with a distant common ancestor. There is no clear evidence of Neanderthal breeding with "modern man."
Pitman said:
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.c ... N40985.DTL
There is not a consensus on Neanderthal genes in modern man. Erik Trinkaus of the University of Pennsylvania and Milford Wolpoff of the University of Michigan are two prominent scientists that support that.And mitochondrial DNA analysis suggests a wide separation between Neanderthal and Cro-Magnon, with a distant common ancestor. There is no clear evidence of Neanderthal breeding with "modern man."
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.c ... N40985.DTL
http://www.discover.com/issues/mar-02/d ... featworks/Through advances in DNA technology, paleoanthropologists have been able to extract genetic material from some of the Neanderthal bones and compare their genes with those of modern humans. The modern genes, Klein argues, "derive exclusively" from the African ancestors of modern humans, and not from Neanderthals.
That's a highly contentious point. Other anthropologists, such as Erik Trinkaus of the University of Pennsylvania and Milford Wolpoff of the University of Michigan, contend that many modern humans carry at least some genes of Neanderthals mixed in with their own.
Studies that use mitochondria DNA are suspect according to Karen WrightDid we rub out the Neanderthals? Or did we rub off on them? By Karen Wright DISCOVER Vol. 23 No. 03 | March 2002
"Of course, there are no Neanderthals left today," says Milford Wolpoff, an anthropologist at the University of Michigan in Ann Arbor. "And people like to use that as a demonstration that they went extinct like the dodo birds. But that ignores the process of evolution."
Wolpoff is the most vocal advocate of the multiregionalism theory, which submits that the Cro-Magnons who left Africa got on rather well with the natives they encountered in their travels. In this view, Neanderthals weren't so much driven to extinction as seduced. "Over time, more and more genes came into Europe and mixed with Neanderthal genes," says Wolpoff. "And the proportion of Neanderthal genes became lower and lower."
There is not yet clear evidence on either position on the theory.Unfortunately, the DNA that's best preserved in ancient remains is from cellular components called mitochondria that aren't representative of the larger human genome. The mtDNA extracted from Neanderthal bones doesn't match anything in the modern world. But last year, when geneticists compared mtDNA from an early modern Australian with contemporary mtDNA, it didn't match either.
This is quack science!
The Basques are as fully Homo Sapians as other Europeans who are as fully Homo Sapeians as Africans, Asians etc etc. . . There are no measurable amounts of Neanderthal DNA in either Basques or any other modern Europeans.
The Basques are simply Europe's only surviving people from before the Indo European migration. The fact that their home occupies the last Neanderthal habitat is a coincidence. The second to the last Neanderthal habitat was in what is now Croatia.
The Basques are as fully Homo Sapians as other Europeans who are as fully Homo Sapeians as Africans, Asians etc etc. . . There are no measurable amounts of Neanderthal DNA in either Basques or any other modern Europeans.
The Basques are simply Europe's only surviving people from before the Indo European migration. The fact that their home occupies the last Neanderthal habitat is a coincidence. The second to the last Neanderthal habitat was in what is now Croatia.
- Allen Milcic
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Thank you for mentioning this, Deterance! See this link for further information:Deterance wrote:The second to the last Neanderthal habitat was in what is now Croatia.
http://www.krapina.com/
Allen/
Really? The Basques don't look much different from the Spaniards or the French.Deterance wrote:The Basques are simply Europe's only surviving people from before the Indo European migration.
Anyway, the Basques have lived in northern Spain and southwestern France from time immemorial. Is it true that the Basques are 99% pure (homogeous) people?
With the exceptions of some Pacific islanders and some African tribes, I think the most homogeneous (100%) people in the world is the Koreans who have lived in the Korean peninsula for tens of thousands of years without any meaningful contacts with other peoples. Only negligible 0.03% of the entire population have foreign blood to varying degrees.
I have never seen anybody who has a foreign father or mother for my life of 32 years. If I marry a Chinese or a Japanese girl, this would be a big news in my community. If I marry a Russian girl, reporters from broadcasting companies and newspaper companies would wait to interview me in front of my home. People would be surprised and shocked by this news!
I think the Basques have lived in Europe just as the Koreans have in Asia. (Korea is a more extreme case. )
With the Basques, it might be more accurate to say that their language sets them apart as Europe's sole remaining pre Indo European people.Kim Sung wrote:Really? The Basques don't look much different from the Spaniards or the French.Deterance wrote:The Basques are simply Europe's only surviving people from before the Indo European migration.
Anyway, the Basques have lived in northern Spain and southwestern France from time immemorial. Is it true that the Basques are 99% pure (homogeous) people?
As far as bloodlines go, the Basques appear to have been mixed with their neighbors far more than Koreans have.
And now.... the most genetically isolated people on earth. These people, particulary those on North Sentinel Island, have been isolated for tens of thousands of years. They are more isolated than Koreans, but are also a far smaller population. (several thousand)
http://andamandt.nic.in/people.htm
I would not be surprised if the small tribe on North Sentinel Island is suffering from many generations of inter marriage to each other. This is never good for raising intellectuals and may also account for some of their exteme hostility.
In either case, the last unintentional trespassers were killed. The link has some photos of the Senteli warriors. If you go fishing off of Sentinel Island.... leave the beer, vodka, wine, Whiskey and Lion's Milk at home.
http://www.andaman.org/BOOK/news_negrito/2006/2006.htm
I can understand almost all European languages to varying degrees (20%~95%) thanks to my deep interest in linguistics. Five official languages I can't understand at all are Hungarian, Finnish, Estonian, Albanian and the Basque language. Among the five languages, the Basque language is unique. It looks like a language from a different planet.
New (?) research on the possibility of Sapiens-Neanderthal interbreeding:
http://www.cnn.com/2006/TECH/science/11 ... index.html
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http://www.cnn.com/2006/TECH/science/11 ... index.html
PORTION OF TEXT WITH RACIST CONTENT REMOVED BY MODERATOR. DO NOT ATTEMPT TO USE THIS FORUM TO PROMOTE THESE KINDS OF VIEWS AGAIN.
Re: Basques: Pre-Indoeuropean?
Note: I've changed at least the title of my post, since I found some of the previous posts in the thread both offensive and racist.
As Deterence wrote, in fact, the Basques' identification as a surviving pre-Indoeuropean population isn't based on their appearance, but on their language, Euskera. It is an isolate, or "orphan", language, for which no related or predecessor languages exist. Therefore it is assumed that the Basques are a survival from prior to the Indoeuropean migrations into Europe.
As you said:
Even more interesting is the bloodtype and Rh distribution among the Basques in the early twentieth century:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/article ... 7-0062.pdf
~Vikki
Really? They might look different to Spaniards or French.Kim Sung wrote:Really? The Basques don't look much different from the Spaniards or the French.Deterance wrote:The Basques are simply Europe's only surviving people from before the Indo European migration.
As Deterence wrote, in fact, the Basques' identification as a surviving pre-Indoeuropean population isn't based on their appearance, but on their language, Euskera. It is an isolate, or "orphan", language, for which no related or predecessor languages exist. Therefore it is assumed that the Basques are a survival from prior to the Indoeuropean migrations into Europe.
As you said:
Kim Sung wrote:I can understand almost all European languages to varying degrees (20%~95%) thanks to my deep interest in linguistics. Five official languages I can't understand at all are Hungarian, Finnish, Estonian, Albanian and the Basque language. Among the five languages, the Basque language is unique. It looks like a language from a different planet.
Even more interesting is the bloodtype and Rh distribution among the Basques in the early twentieth century:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/article ... 7-0062.pdf
~Vikki
- Ironmachine
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Re: How the Neanderthals became the Basques
Not so interesting, it seems:Vikki wrote:Even more interesting is the bloodtype and Rh distribution among the Basques in the early twentieth century:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/article ... 7-0062.pdf
http://hemeroteca.abc.es/nav/Navigate.e ... 9/064.html
http://hemeroteca.abc.es/nav/Navigate.e ... 9/065.html