Colonel Ryszard Kuklinski Museum

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Musashi
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#16

Post by Musashi » 03 Jul 2007, 19:13

henryk wrote: I was the Systems Manager for the Cl-289 Surveillance Drone System purchased by the West Germans and French to provide surveillance in case of a Warsaw Pact attack. It would permit identifying and locating targets for attack. Should the fathers of sons killed in that attack curse me for indirectly causing the deaths of their sons. Should they curse the developers of the missiles that directly killed their sons. Should they curse Kuklinski for providing the information that facilitated that attack.
No, of course not!. They should curse the communist lackeys in their government that acquiesced in supporting their Overlords of the Evil Empire on the aggressive invasion.
That's the problem, Heniu.
You were not living in Poland at that time and it would not have been your son, who could have been bombed by NATO aviation. Therefore you will never understand me.
henryk wrote:But Poles did not die in an invasion of Denmark.
But they could have died and your hero made a lot of efforts (although it could not have been his intention) to increase this number. That's enough.
Radziu S. wrote:In case of war, his contribution could have been decisive: By supplying the U.S. with details about the wartime command bunker he made it possible to stop the Soviets by liquidating the Soviet leadership instead of liquidating Poland.
The Soviets were not kind of guys, who used to give up like this. The effect could have been just replacing highest rank Polish officers for Soviet ones as it happened after WWII.
Radziu S. wrote:In the fall of 1980, for example, Brezhnev was planning to crush Solidarity with a full-scale invasion of Poland. Kuklinski's information on the plans helped President Carter make pointed, well-timed warnings to the Soviets, which arguably prevented the invasion and what would have been a major East––West confrontation.
It's not even worth comment. Radziu must live on other planet as he writes such things.
We know about American "help" in Czechoslovakia in 1968 or Hungary in 1956. What help? Do you mean a moral one? :lol:
The Western Allies did not care about Poland during and after WWII and you expect they would have cared about us in 1980 having much better organised Soviet and East German forces with a "couple" of A-bombs as an opponent? As the casualties in Iraq (3000+++ killed in 4 years) are shocking for American society, what would you say for 3000 killed within a few hours of a full-scale conflict, even EXCLUDING A-weapon?
Could you enlighten me and explain where is logic in Radziu's way of thinking, because I cannot follow it?
Walesa has relented and calls Kuklinski a hero.
Who cares about Wałęsa in Poland now? He's completely forgotten and considered an "idiot" (it's an opinion of most of Poles, not my personal one), who ridiculed himself during the presidental election in 2000 gathering 0.7% of votes. He is used to talking what he knows, but he rarely knows, what he's talking about.
(My translation of Kaczynski’s words: "According to the plans at that time, if world war broke out, if Soviet Russia invaded Europe, our Country, in the physical sense, would be no more. And that is the standard to judge Colonel Ryszard Kuklinski by. But we exist today. And we can say to the Colonel: sleep in peace, you served the Fatherland well." )
...said a man, who according to official polls is considered the worst Polish president in history (yes, worse than Wałęsa). He has an approval rate of 20+% now, IIRC.
Sooooooooo very funny, but you could have made me even more laugh by choosing Kim Jong Il, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad or sheik Usamah ibn Muhammad ibn Ladin al-Riyadi for K*'s supporters.
According to Kuklinski, he received no money for his espionage activities.
No money, so the yacht he owned must have been a gift from Jesus Christ & heaven. There haven't been any Polish commie generals in history who could afford to have a luxury yacht, not talking about a colonel.
ToKu wrote:In case of hipotetical west - east conflict we were sacheduled to be a part of bad guys. So theoretically our chances for getting good peace conditions were lower then after WW II.
It's very logic and Danes, who "we" (->Soviets in fact) planned to attack would not have helped us in getting mild peace conditions ;)
ToKu wrote: But the fact is: he gave information to our enemies.

Yes, enemies. I wonder if during hot conflict NATO solidiers would be ordered to aim at legs, cause guys who opposite them are Poles and they don't really want to be there. I doubt it.
I also doubt it. Any others believe? :wink:
ToKu wrote:He gave information that led to higher casualties among polish solidiers. Poland lost TOO MANY of its sons already during XX century.
You have missed the point a bit. It would be no problem for the Polish society with accepting suffering causalties, but there is a kind of necessary and unnecessary casualties. You probably mean we would not like to suffer casualties in a BS war, that would not have given any gains for Poland and where we would have been used just as a Soviet tool.
There is no force in the world, that would have motivated me to attacking Denmark, that has never been in state of war with Poland. My initial willingness to fight would have been equal to zero, but I would have to fight just not to be killed and trying to survive. Taking part in such a BS war would not have given me any satisfaction or pride.
ToKu wrote:Sorry for being too sarcastic, but I simply can't understand how the hell he could be treated as hero.
It's beyond my capabilities, either. I cannot judge his intentions, because I "was not" in his mind, just possible consequences.

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#17

Post by henryk » 04 Jul 2007, 21:21

Quotes are from Musashi:
henryk wrote:
But Poles did not die in an invasion of Denmark.


But they could have died and your hero made a lot of efforts (although it could not have been his intention) to increase this number. That's enough.
You missed my point. That Kuklinski's information saved the Polish lives that would have been lost in an invasion of Denmark, through the NATO-Warsaw Pact interactions to keep the Cold War cold.
Radziu S. wrote:
In case of war, his contribution could have been decisive: By supplying the U.S. with details about the wartime command bunker he made it possible to stop the Soviets by liquidating the Soviet leadership instead of liquidating Poland.


The Soviets were not kind of guys, who used to give up like this. The effect could have been just replacing highest rank Polish officers for Soviet ones as it happened after WWII.
Radziu was not referring to Polish officers but high level government and military in/near Moscow.
Radziu S. wrote:
In the fall of 1980, for example, Brezhnev was planning to crush Solidarity with a full-scale invasion of Poland. Kuklinski's information on the plans helped President Carter make pointed, well-timed warnings to the Soviets, which arguably prevented the invasion and what would have been a major East––West confrontation.
It's not even worth comment. Radziu must live on other planet as he writes such things.
We know about American "help" in Czechoslovakia in 1968 or Hungary in 1956. What help? Do you mean a moral one?
The Western Allies did not care about Poland during and after WWII and you expect they would have cared about us in 1980 having much better organised Soviet and East German forces with a "couple" of A-bombs as an opponent? As the casualties in Iraq (3000+++ killed in 4 years) are shocking for American society, what would you say for 3000 killed within a few hours of a full-scale conflict, even EXCLUDING A-weapon?
Could you enlighten me and explain where is logic in Radziu's way of thinking, because I cannot follow it?
This situation is covered in the topic: Jaruzelski: Hero Or Villain?
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... highlight=
The American actions, using Kuklinski's information led the USSR to recognize the real impact of their actios, as shown by the red text below:
At the December 10 politburo meeting, Andropov hinted at the reasons why the Kremlin's priorities had changed since the time in 1956 when he as Soviet ambassador to Hungary had been instrumental in forcibly preventing its defection from communism and the Warsaw Pact. Citing "a variety of economic and political sanctions" already prepared by the West that would "make things very difficult for us," he reminded his colleagues that, after all, "we have to take care of our own country." Suslov supported him by adding that the Soviet Union's investment in détente made it "impossible for us to change our position. World public opinion will not allow us to do so. "96 Thus the tired leaders of the declining superpower proved to have greater sensitivity to long-term Western pressure and the subtle power of ideas than most of their contemporaries, misled by the formidable appearance of Soviet military machine, were prepared to believe.
Yet Czech, East German and American documents indicate that in December 1980, such a threat was narrowly avoided, thanks to the reaction of the US and other governments that warned the Kremlin of serious consequences should there be an invasion.
Musashi, ToKu, you have given your personal opinions. Please provide the opinions of prominent Poles that support your views.
Anyone else on the Forum from Poland with a view?


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#18

Post by ToKu » 05 Jul 2007, 06:57

Adam Michnik (prominent Pole, dessident):

http://serwisy.gazeta.pl/kraj/1,34311,138526.html

in Polish only, too long to translate for me, but check this article Henryk.


From linked aricle:
" Jak się mieszka w Waszyngtonie, to wolno tak rozumować. Z tamtej perspektywy Polska jest takim samym polem walki z komunizmem jak Korea, Wietnam czy Afganistan. Gdy mieszka się w Polsce, to taka globalna perspektywa jest fałszywa. Polakowi nie może być obojętne, czy w konflikcie zginie 100 osób czy też 100 tysięcy - jak w Afganistanie. Na wybór strategii amerykańskiej płk Kukliński nie miał żadnego wpływu."

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An Opinion on Adam Michnik

#19

Post by henryk » 05 Jul 2007, 21:39

Emphsis in red is mine
https://www.cia.gov/library/center-for- ... art03.html
The Vilification and Vindication of Colonel Kuklinski
Entangled in History
Benjamin B. Fischer
...................................................................................................
Caustic Commentary
The left refused to reconcile itself to Kuklinski’s vindication. Adam Michnik, a political prisoner during martial law and now editor of Gazeta Wyborcza, articulated the anti-Kuklinski case in a commentary in which he rebuked Kuklinski for cooperating with US intelligence, saying he "had crossed a line" that even the opposition had refused to cross.73 (Some former Solidarity leaders, however, have acknowledged and expressed their gratitude for US covert assistance during the underground period.)

But Michnik was more interested in current politics than past events. He warned that Kuklinski might become a "graphic symbol evoking crowd enthusiasm" and that the "right can resort to that symbol in the future." He also complained that "Colonel Kuklinski tolerated becoming a standard-bearer of forces other than those desirous of conciliation and broad consensus on Poland’s road to NATO and the EU [European Union]," that is, he was anti-Russian. Worst of all, however, in Michnik’s eyes Kuklinski symbolized Polish subservience to the United States. "If this entire hullabaloo surrounding Kuklinski’s visit is to signify that the attitude to Kuklinski and the American special services is to be a litmus test of patriotic Poles, then that will be the pitiable finale to the Polish dream of freedom." Poland should not become a "collective Kuklinski."

Michnik seemed to labor under the misapprehension that NATO and the Warsaw Pact were equivalent treaty organizations while ignoring why the Poles rushed to join the Western alliance the moment they were eligible. NATO originated as a voluntary coalition of sovereign states that united for their common defense. The Warsaw Pact was part of a bigger imperial arrangement for yoking the East European armies to the Soviet high command. When the USSR summoned its "allies" to Warsaw in 1955 without prior consultation, it forced them to sign a defense pact with a secret annex specifying the military contingents they would have to provide in wartime. Perhaps because it chafed under the Soviet yoke more than the others, Poland was "in a class by itself" in showing "consistency of purpose and commitment by its government and people alike" to joining NATO.74 In doing so, Poles were seeking security, but they also were seeking to avoid the tragic choices they had had to make in the past.

One conservative commentator criticized Michnik’s editorial as "ordinary political prevarication intended to exonerate" Communist Poland. 75 He could have added "and arouse anti-American feelings." But even Michnik’s critics would probably agree with his article’s closing words: "I think that it is time to understand that in Poland there will always be some who consider Kuklinski a hero and some who consider Jaruzelski a hero, and we will have to live with that."

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Re: Colonel Ryszard Kuklinski Museum

#20

Post by henryk » 09 Dec 2008, 21:55

A documentary film about Ryszard Kuklinski
Polish Radio: External Service: English Section
http://www.polskieradio.pl/zagranica/ne ... l[quote][b]
'War Games' premiered in Warsaw [/b]

09.12.2008
A documentary film about Ryszard Kuklinski, who passed top secret Warsaw Pact documents to the CIA during the communist period, has been premiered in Warsaw. The screening was held at the Warsaw Philharmonic Hall under the honorary patronage of Polish Ministers for Foreign Affairs, Defenseand Culture.

The film, titled War Games, took Dariusz Jablonski five years to make. It was shot in Poland, the United States and Russia and includes interviews with high-ranking CIA generals, former US presidential security adviser Zbigniew Brzezinski, former Polish president Lech Walesa, Polish generals Jaruzelski and Kiszczak, commander of Warsaw Pact forces Soviet Marshal Kulikov, and Kuklinski’s widow.

On Thursday, War Games will be shown at the CIA headquarters. President George W. Bush has been invited to attend.

Polish army colonel Ryszard Kuklinski passed over 40, 000 pages of mostly Soviet secret documents to the CIA between 1971 and 1981. They described, among other things, plans for the imposition of martial law in Poland. Shortly after the declaration of martial law in December 1981, Kuklinski was extracted from Poland by the CIA, along with his family. In 1984, a military court in Warsaw sentenced him to death. The sentence was annulled after the fall of communism. Kuklinski visited Poland in 1998. He died in Florida in 2004.[/quote]

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Re: Colonel Ryszard Kuklinski Museum

#21

Post by henryk » 12 Dec 2008, 21:04

Polish Radio; External service; English Section
http://www.polskieradio.pl/zagranica/ne ... l[quote][b] CIA declassifies reports written by colonel Ryszard Kuklinski [/b]
12.12.2008

CIA has declassified over a thousand pages of reports written by colonel Ryszard Kuklinski and dealing with communist regime preparations to enforce martial law in Poland in December 1981.

Speaking to Polish Radio CIA historian Nicholas Dujmovic said that the revealed documents do not give a clear answer to the question of general Wojciech Jaruzelski's decision to enforce martial law in Poland. “Unfortunately the release is not complete and may be disappointing to some people and I know Polish people are looking to restore their own history. It is disappointing to me as a historian but it's a good start. So stay tuned, as we say, there will be more such releases” said Dujmovic.

The documents were made public during a special session in Washington CIA headquarters devoted to the colonel. It was accompanied by a screening of ‘War Games’, a film by Dariusz Jablonski about Ryszard Kuklinski which was attended by CIA chief Michael Hayden and former presidential national security advisor Zbigniew Brzezinski
[/quote]

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Re: Colonel Ryszard Kuklinski Museum

#22

Post by henryk » 21 Jun 2009, 19:05

The reviewer of the book on Kuklinski's life states that Kuklinski's actions complied with Polish Law.
From The Polish Review vol LII no 2 pp252-3. Red underlining is mine.
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Re: Colonel Ryszard Kuklinski Museum

#23

Post by dragos03 » 22 Jun 2009, 17:35

Odd to see that a traitor has a museum.

I don't think it's important that he betrayed an evil regime, as long as he did it for money.

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Re: Colonel Ryszard Kuklinski Museum

#24

Post by Musashi » 27 Jun 2009, 00:36

dragos03 wrote:Odd to see that a traitor has a museum.

I don't think it's important that he betrayed an evil regime, as long as he did it for money.
That's what exactly I think.

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Re: Colonel Ryszard Kuklinski Museum

#25

Post by henryk » 27 Jun 2009, 21:05

Musashi wrote:
dragos03 wrote:Odd to see that a traitor has a museum.

I don't think it's important that he betrayed an evil regime, as long as he did it for money.
That's what exactly I think.
Based on the book on Kuklinski's life, the only payment he received, until after his escape, was a goldplated ballpoint pen and a poison pill. He risked his life and that of his family. He was a traitor to the Communist Government of Poland, and a hero to free Poland. A man of honour, of Polish Honour. If only more in the Soviet Bloc had his courage, then the captive people of Eastern Europe would have been freed much earlier.

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Re: Colonel Ryszard Kuklinski Museum

#26

Post by dragos03 » 28 Jun 2009, 15:36

According to what I've read, he received large payments for every information that he gave to the CIA.

And he was not alone. My country (Romania) has such a traitor as well: Ion Mihai Pacepa, who did more or less the same thing as Kuklinski. And even if Pacepa betrayed a murderous regime, I still consider him a traitor.

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Re: Colonel Ryszard Kuklinski Museum

#27

Post by henryk » 28 Jun 2009, 20:17

Musashi, dragos03: sources please.

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Re: Colonel Ryszard Kuklinski Museum

#28

Post by dragos03 » 30 Jun 2009, 23:04

My source is the Romanian magazine Historia, which published a long article about Kuklinski.

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Re: Colonel Ryszard Kuklinski Museum

#29

Post by henryk » 07 Jul 2009, 21:50

dragos03 wrote:My source is the Romanian magazine Historia, which published a long article about Kuklinski.
What is your basis for trusting the magazine? Is it a peer reviewed academic journal or a popular magazine without peer review? When was it published, in communist times, with a communist bias? What is the evidence that Kuklinski was paid?

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Re: Colonel Ryszard Kuklinski Museum

#30

Post by dragos03 » 18 Aug 2009, 10:59

It's a modern semi-academic magazine, not a communist one. The articles were published in 2009 and the sources are mostly Polish. I see no reason not to trust it.

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