Hi,
I remembered quite clearly in a book about the Korean War that it was not much of a propaganda from North Korea that South Korea "invaded" first. According to Encarta, it said, "...the South provoked the majority of the 1949 border fights...."
But I understand that Kim Il Sung always had an intention to invade the South. He said something like in order to stop intrusion from the South, the North must have military actions to repel the South."
Do you think that the intrusions from the South partly contributed to have the North invade? Was it the South's fault?
-Johannes
Did S. Korea provoked the Korean War?
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Homer martin
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by Ed Evanhoe
June 25, 1950
At approximately 4 a.m. (Korean Standard Time) on a rainy Sunday morning Democratic People's Republic of Korea Army (DPRK - North Korea) artillery and mortars open fire on Republic of Korea (ROK - South Korea) Army positions south of the 38th Parallel, the line then serving as the border between the two countries. The opening barrage is followed shortly by tank/infantry attacks at all points along the Parallel. At 11 a.m. North Korea announced a formal declaration of war and what is now known as "The Korean War" officially began. In this announcement North Korea claimed ROK forces on the Ongjin Peninsula attacked North Korea in the Haeju area (west) and their declaration of war was in response to this attack. This claim was bogus.
This subject was done on a very good History channel show in 2001-2. The North had been asking both China and Russia for a few years for permission to attack the South. In late spring of 1950 North Korea was given the green light to attack the South by both China and Russia.
/HGM
June 25, 1950
At approximately 4 a.m. (Korean Standard Time) on a rainy Sunday morning Democratic People's Republic of Korea Army (DPRK - North Korea) artillery and mortars open fire on Republic of Korea (ROK - South Korea) Army positions south of the 38th Parallel, the line then serving as the border between the two countries. The opening barrage is followed shortly by tank/infantry attacks at all points along the Parallel. At 11 a.m. North Korea announced a formal declaration of war and what is now known as "The Korean War" officially began. In this announcement North Korea claimed ROK forces on the Ongjin Peninsula attacked North Korea in the Haeju area (west) and their declaration of war was in response to this attack. This claim was bogus.
This subject was done on a very good History channel show in 2001-2. The North had been asking both China and Russia for a few years for permission to attack the South. In late spring of 1950 North Korea was given the green light to attack the South by both China and Russia.
/HGM
Like Homer says, cliams of provocation were totally bogus and unfounded. The SK army was a joke and Kim had been meticuously planning such a move for years.
Thanks largely to Communist aggression and subversion around teh globe, Truman remained anxious to support Rhee's administration with economic (pathetic) and military aid. Congress was less than willing and dragged its feet on the matter. A number of riots had broken out in certain provinces of the South, often inspired by Communist agitation. Kim had sent the leader of the Korean Workers party to begin guerrilla warfare in the South and overthrow the ROK government. Similarly the North was also beset by anti-communist guerrilla activity. Despite their misgivings, the Americans were over-confident that tiny and very ill-equipped army of the South could deal with Communist insurgency, and even halt a Northern attack. They were gravely mistaken. While the ROK army had remained mainly a crippled constabulary force pacifying the countryside, the North was rapidly equipping itself for modern offensive warfare. The US deliberately kept Rhee on a short leash, fearing his fervent nationalism would start a cross border war.
The extent of Soviet-NK collusion is often underestimated. It was the failure to instigate popular uprisings in the South that convinced Kim to seek Stalin’s help. At the time the US and little comprehension as to the extent of Stalin’s and Kim’s cooperation. Kim was dedicated to the reunification of Korea even by armed aggression. In March 1949, following defeat in the Berlin crisis, Stalin warned him to restrict himself to cross border guerrilla activities. However, in March 1950 he relented and promised and provided massive military aid.
After consulting and gaining Mao’s support, the operation was good to go. Stalin was ready to integrate a war in Korea with his wider plans for Asia; the subordination of China and Korea to Soviet leadership, the support of Ho Chi Minh in Vietnam, and the infiltration of the Communist Party in Vietnam. By creating new hotspots in the East Stalin would compel the US to take on new and expensive defence commitments around the globe. Hopefully proving unpopular, they would lose the support of the American people, and weaken US commitment to NATO. In 1949, General McArthur proclaimed that the US defence perimeter did not include Korea and Taiwan, giving the Communists yet more confidence. There would now be a total re-fit of the North Korean Peoples Army (NKPA) with modern T-34 tanks, armoured personnel carriers, anti aircraft defences, attack aircraft and logistical trucks. Soviet advisory officers provided weapon and vehicle training and draw up the overall plan for an invasion of South Korea. Ultimately, the plan entailed overwhelming southern defences in a surprise combined arms blitz, and unify the country under Communist control. If the truth be told Western analysts had been totally hoodwinked. Kim was convinced that if the US hadn’t intervened to “save” China, they were unlikely to intervene in Korea, which few of them could find on a map.
By 25 June the communist propoganda war and secret military preperations had met every one of their objectives and completely decieved the SKs, as well as the various military and UN observers in Korea. On the parallel no-one anticipated an attack. Truman had only recently given a speech about how the chances for world peace had never been better!
All but one of the US military observers were absent and their CO was in Tokyo; half of the ROK divisions (the grand total of four) charged with border defence were located in the South of the country nowhere near the front. Many of their officers were enjoying extended leave and no-one was prepared when the NK tanks smashed their way through the Uijongbu corridor. Kims rantings are little more than propoganda.
'The Korean War' by Brian Catchpole is strongly recomended if your interested.
http://images.amazon.com/images/P/07867 ... ZZZZZZ.jpg
Thanks largely to Communist aggression and subversion around teh globe, Truman remained anxious to support Rhee's administration with economic (pathetic) and military aid. Congress was less than willing and dragged its feet on the matter. A number of riots had broken out in certain provinces of the South, often inspired by Communist agitation. Kim had sent the leader of the Korean Workers party to begin guerrilla warfare in the South and overthrow the ROK government. Similarly the North was also beset by anti-communist guerrilla activity. Despite their misgivings, the Americans were over-confident that tiny and very ill-equipped army of the South could deal with Communist insurgency, and even halt a Northern attack. They were gravely mistaken. While the ROK army had remained mainly a crippled constabulary force pacifying the countryside, the North was rapidly equipping itself for modern offensive warfare. The US deliberately kept Rhee on a short leash, fearing his fervent nationalism would start a cross border war.
The extent of Soviet-NK collusion is often underestimated. It was the failure to instigate popular uprisings in the South that convinced Kim to seek Stalin’s help. At the time the US and little comprehension as to the extent of Stalin’s and Kim’s cooperation. Kim was dedicated to the reunification of Korea even by armed aggression. In March 1949, following defeat in the Berlin crisis, Stalin warned him to restrict himself to cross border guerrilla activities. However, in March 1950 he relented and promised and provided massive military aid.
After consulting and gaining Mao’s support, the operation was good to go. Stalin was ready to integrate a war in Korea with his wider plans for Asia; the subordination of China and Korea to Soviet leadership, the support of Ho Chi Minh in Vietnam, and the infiltration of the Communist Party in Vietnam. By creating new hotspots in the East Stalin would compel the US to take on new and expensive defence commitments around the globe. Hopefully proving unpopular, they would lose the support of the American people, and weaken US commitment to NATO. In 1949, General McArthur proclaimed that the US defence perimeter did not include Korea and Taiwan, giving the Communists yet more confidence. There would now be a total re-fit of the North Korean Peoples Army (NKPA) with modern T-34 tanks, armoured personnel carriers, anti aircraft defences, attack aircraft and logistical trucks. Soviet advisory officers provided weapon and vehicle training and draw up the overall plan for an invasion of South Korea. Ultimately, the plan entailed overwhelming southern defences in a surprise combined arms blitz, and unify the country under Communist control. If the truth be told Western analysts had been totally hoodwinked. Kim was convinced that if the US hadn’t intervened to “save” China, they were unlikely to intervene in Korea, which few of them could find on a map.
By 25 June the communist propoganda war and secret military preperations had met every one of their objectives and completely decieved the SKs, as well as the various military and UN observers in Korea. On the parallel no-one anticipated an attack. Truman had only recently given a speech about how the chances for world peace had never been better!
All but one of the US military observers were absent and their CO was in Tokyo; half of the ROK divisions (the grand total of four) charged with border defence were located in the South of the country nowhere near the front. Many of their officers were enjoying extended leave and no-one was prepared when the NK tanks smashed their way through the Uijongbu corridor. Kims rantings are little more than propoganda.
'The Korean War' by Brian Catchpole is strongly recomended if your interested.
http://images.amazon.com/images/P/07867 ... ZZZZZZ.jpg
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Pzkpfw V. Panther
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North Koreans attacked first of course ... and on June 25, 2/3 of the ROK soldiers were sent home for the relaxation + etc ... so only 1/3 of soldiers were avaliable when the war begin ~~~ and also, most of the officers of the ROK army and U.S. army were having party on the night of june 24th ... so on 25th ... most of them were drunk and couldn't even wake up and stuff ~~~ the heavily armored T-34 ~~~ under North Koreans just swept across the 38th parallel ~~~
Thats true. Rhee was a hot-head, but a hobbled one at that. Both Rhee and Kim talked openly and aggressivly about unification and Rhee was an anti-communist (no bad thing). The differance was that unlike the North talking was all he could no. Kim on the other hand had massive military and economic support from the Soviets and Chinese. They helped create a monster who we are stuck with to this day. While the US was keen to maintain peace in the region the Soviets activly helped the North prepare for an aggressive invasion against the South, who's military totally irrelavent. The first phase was insurgency, but this failed to spark any popular uprisings. Following this the South attempted equally unsuccesfull counter-insurgency movements. It was a tit for tat game, but little more. On 25 June it was the DPRK that attacked the South without any provocation or cross-border dispute. It was an offensive that took many months to prepare for.Sieger wrote:The president of Korea at the time Rhee sungman was a anticommunist loose cannon. He did provoke numerous border clashes, this is why the US dragged its feet on providing military aid, hence SK army had no tanks at the time by June 25th. He openly threatened to unify the country by force.
Hi,
Im afraid I can't agree with you on that point. ALL evidence points towards the North starting the war. It wasn't just an inflamed cross-border dispute. To believe so is ignoring the mass of evidence to the contrary. I could go into much more detail if you'd like. Fact remains NK launched a fully fledged invasion that had been meticuously planned and wargamed over with extensive Soviet/Chinese backing.
Im afraid I can't agree with you on that point. ALL evidence points towards the North starting the war. It wasn't just an inflamed cross-border dispute. To believe so is ignoring the mass of evidence to the contrary. I could go into much more detail if you'd like. Fact remains NK launched a fully fledged invasion that had been meticuously planned and wargamed over with extensive Soviet/Chinese backing.
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Homer martin
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- Joined: 13 Mar 2002, 13:08
- Location: USA
Hi
Johannes,
The South Korean Army wasn't armed to fight a major war, when the North Korean Army attacked the South. You need to read how in the 1-2 years before the conflict started the North Korean Army was given a number of tanks (can't remember the total but I think it was 100 T-34/85's), artillery and planes (Yak 9s I think). The South had nothing in it arsonal to counter these weapons systems, and when the U.S. sent the first Task Froce there it also had very little in the way of weapons to stop the North Koreans.
The North fired first as it was a planned attack, that had been in the works for months. The North Korean Army attacked on a number of axis, which the South Korean Army had little or nothing in some case to thrown in front of these massed advances.
There was no attack by the South Koreans that day to start this operation by the North. An Army doesn't just start an advance in 24 hours, it takes time to get ready and to bring the troops into line of advance.
/HGM
The South Korean Army wasn't armed to fight a major war, when the North Korean Army attacked the South. You need to read how in the 1-2 years before the conflict started the North Korean Army was given a number of tanks (can't remember the total but I think it was 100 T-34/85's), artillery and planes (Yak 9s I think). The South had nothing in it arsonal to counter these weapons systems, and when the U.S. sent the first Task Froce there it also had very little in the way of weapons to stop the North Koreans.
The North fired first as it was a planned attack, that had been in the works for months. The North Korean Army attacked on a number of axis, which the South Korean Army had little or nothing in some case to thrown in front of these massed advances.
There was no attack by the South Koreans that day to start this operation by the North. An Army doesn't just start an advance in 24 hours, it takes time to get ready and to bring the troops into line of advance.
/HGM
Yes, and there are people who believe Hitler's aggressive expansionist moves were the 'right thing to do'. Apologism for totalitarian Communist aggression is distinctly distasteful, as almost any Finn or Balt will gladly tell you. Kim Il Sung's regime practically looks like a living tribute to Orwell and Huxley.Johannes wrote:In ex-USSR, China and among other former or pro communist countries, they believe it was the right thing to do. It is only the matter of idealogy.