From Wehrmacht to Bundeswehr

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Adam Carr
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From Wehrmacht to Bundeswehr

#1

Post by Adam Carr » 10 Dec 2008, 12:12

I've haven't seen much written about the early years of the Bundeswehr and how it handled its awkward heritage from the Wehrmacht. Can anyone answer the following?

* How were Wehrmacht officer veterans screened before being allowed to join the Bundeswehr? Were ex-NSDAP members excluded, for example?
* Were former SS officers or men allowed to join the Bundeswehr?
* Were officers who had been involved in the July 20 plot or other resistance activities recruited to the Bundeswehr?
* Who was the highest-ranking Wehrmacht officer to serve in the Bundeswehr?
* Were Wehrmacht ranks restored in the Bundeswehr, or did everyone have to "start over again"?
* Were decorations won in WW2 worn by Bundeswehr officers and men? Were the decorations invented by the Nazis, such as the Knights Cross, recognised?
* Given that the Bundeswehr was established because of the perceived threat of the Soviet Union in the Cold War, how was the experience of Wehrmacht veterans of the eastern front used? Were they allowed to lecture on How We Beat the Russkies at staff college?
* Some time in the 1980s, I would guess, the last WW2 veteran would have retired from the Bundeswehr. Does anyone know who that was?
* Do Wehrmacht veterans get German government pensions? Do Waffen SS veterans get them?

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Re: From Wehrmacht to Bundeswehr

#2

Post by Larso » 10 Dec 2008, 13:41

Others will have better answers than I but yes, there was screening. I don't think SS officers, even with 'clean' records were permitted in. I don't think they were elible for pensions either but I'm not sure. There was a top general who made it across (an Italian Front one?) but I don't have it handy - someone else will know though. I think he's described as the 'father' of the modern German army. A few Luftwaffe ones made it to senior post war roles too.

I understand all/most medals were permitted, providing the swastika was replaced by that oak leaf. Given so many Germans would've lost their medals to their captors, I suspect almost everyone had to get copies made anyway. A family friend sent me one of his copies some years ago.

I can still recall a newspaper story from the 80s that revealed that the last WW2 vets were all set to retire together. From memory there were six or so and a ceremony of sorts was being organised to mark it. And yes, their experience in fighting the Soviets was remarked upon in terms of what they were able to teach others.

There have been major efforts to break the army from its past, even down to making the uniform look daggy, so I was surprised that even though much WW2 terminology was junked - PanzerGrenadiers was still used to describe half the German Army. I'm sure that term sprung from Hitler himself and I always wondered how it snuck through when so much else was so purposely changed.

I'm looking forward to reading the answers to your questions, this is an interesting thread.


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Re: From Wehrmacht to Bundeswehr

#3

Post by Adam Carr » 10 Dec 2008, 14:06

Thanks for that. Let's see what else people can come up with. The Bundeswehr uniform does indeed look pretty pallid. This topic is of particular interest now that the Bundeswehr is seeing action for the first time (in Afghanistan, 18 killed in action to date). You're probably aware of the agitation to bring back the Iron Cross, which I agree with. I wonder if they sing "Mein Guter Kamerad" at Bundeswehr funerals, or is it regarded as too "contaminated" by the Nazis (even though it dates from the Napoleonic Wars, like the Iron Cross). http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=qpMPUgaEEXQ

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Re: From Wehrmacht to Bundeswehr

#4

Post by nondescript handle » 10 Dec 2008, 22:42

Just some quick remarks off the top of my head.
How were Wehrmacht officer veterans screened before being allowed to join the Bundeswehr?
There was a commission (including some of the surviving 20 Juli plotters) elected by the parliament who screened everyone from colonel to general.
Were former SS officers or men allowed to join the Bundeswehr?
The aforementioned commission ruled out ss-veterans for colonels and above, but privates to lieutenant-colonels were allowed to join.
Were Wehrmacht ranks restored in the Bundeswehr, or did everyone have to "start over again"?
Mostly they were restored to the old rank (which was one reason why many veterans switched from the then-paramilitary Federal Border Guards to the new Bundeswehr).
Were decorations won in WW2 worn by Bundeswehr officers and men?
After 1957 de-nazified versions could be worn. There is at least one thread here in the forum with photos of BW soldiers with 57s edition awards.
Were they allowed to lecture on How We Beat the Russkies at staff college?
That was the whole point.
Do Wehrmacht veterans get German government pensions? Do Waffen SS veterans get them?
Yes, of course. But war criminals and the like can lose their pension rights.
The Bundeswehr uniform does indeed look pretty pallid.
In the 50s there was the idea that the west European nations would field one unified army under the banner of the European Defense Community. This is all but forgotten today, but at that time they actually had specified uniforms before that plan was abandoned.
The uniforms of the Bundeswehr were modeled after these western-European-average guidelines, because they expected that "German uniforms" would only be a transition phase.
After the unified European army was scrapped the BW uniforms got a little more "German" (e.g. the lace for NCOs), but the tradition line of BW uniforms is in fact the stillborn EDC army as much as older German uniforms.

Edit: EDC not WEU.
I wonder if they sing "Mein Guter Kamerad" at Bundeswehr funerals
Yes, of course. And at Volkstrauertag.
like the Iron Cross
I felt that the main resistence against an iron cross as a decoration was not so much the nazi taint, but the impression that the IC was a cheap motivator for "cannon fodder" in WW1 and WW2.

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Re: From Wehrmacht to Bundeswehr

#5

Post by Adam Carr » 11 Dec 2008, 00:38

Thanks for those comments. In relation to pensions, I think my question should have been: do SS veterans have pension rights *in their capacity as SS veterans*, or merely the old-age pension like everyone else? If yes, does this apply only to Waffen SS front-line troops, or also to Allgemeine SS who (mostly) spent the war as KZ guards? How is it possible to separate "good" from "bad" SS veterans?

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Re: From Wehrmacht to Bundeswehr

#6

Post by nondescript handle » 11 Dec 2008, 01:08

Adam Carr wrote:[...] do SS veterans have pension rights *in their capacity as SS veterans*, or merely the old-age pension like everyone else? [...]
For conscripts (both Wehrmacht and combat W-SS) years served count as years contributed to the (civilian) public pensions scheme. Career soldiers of the Wehrmacht (i.e. officers and NCOs) receive state pensions by the Versorgungsamt like civil servants.
I don't know how career soldiers of the SS and non-combat (e.g. KZ guards) SS members are classified for pension purposes and how (of even if)they were screened, sorry.

Regards
Mark

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Re: From Wehrmacht to Bundeswehr

#7

Post by henryk » 11 Dec 2008, 22:07

Adam Carr said:
This topic is of particular interest now that the Bundeswehr is seeing action for the first time (in Afghanistan, 18 killed in action to date).
The Bundeswehr has seen action outside Germany since 1993 in many locations.
http://www.bundesregierung.de/Content/E ... html[quote]
Bundeswehr foreign missions: An overview
The armed forces of the Bundeswehr participate in peace-keeping, peace-enforcement and peace stability operations with armed forces from friendly and partner nations. The Bundeswehr contributes to preventing or putting an end to violent conflicts.
The Bundeswehr is involved in missions in the fight against international terrorism as well as in supporting alliance partners. It is also responsible for evacuating German nationals in emergency situations and for assisting humanitarian missions.[/quote]

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Re: From Wehrmacht to Bundeswehr

#8

Post by Adam Carr » 12 Dec 2008, 04:28

I don't count UN peacekeeping missions as "action." So far as I know, Afghanistan is the first time German soldiers have actually seen armed conflict since May 1945. These 18 Germans are certainly the first German combat deaths since then. (They are also the first German soldiers to die in a good cause since the Battle of Leipzig in 1814.)

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Re: From Wehrmacht to Bundeswehr

#9

Post by Adam Carr » 12 Dec 2008, 12:30

This seems to answer the question about who the most senior Wehrmacht officer in the Bundeswehr was.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ludwig_Cr%C3%BCwell
Ludwig Crüwell had the advantage of having fought only in North Africa, a fairly "clean" war, until he was captured in 1942.

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Re: From Wehrmacht to Bundeswehr

#10

Post by Larso » 12 Dec 2008, 13:06

A few things from 'Changing Orders: The Evolution of the Worlds Armies 1945 - Present' by Peter Tsouras

On 11 November 1955 the first 101 veteran officers and NCOs were sworn in as members of the new Bundeswehr. (I wonder whether WW1s Remembrance Day was significant?) Evidently the ceremony was conducted beneath a gigantic
Iron Cross as well as the national flag.

Apparently the start date related to the birthday of Scharnhorst - seen as a 'positive' military tradition.

Chancellor Adenauer promised to field 12 divisions by 1959. By the end of 1956, despite lots of public hostility, 265,000 men had volunteered, although the annual intake was only 70,000 for that year. The great majority were Wehrmacht veterans. There were two commissions screening the applicants. Those who had committed war-crimes or who had been colonel or higher in the SS were rejected outright. As for SS rankers, they essentially had to prove they were forced into the SS if they were to avoid the secondary scrutiny. They also had to make statements disavowing National Socialism and as a result, by the end of 1956, only 566, less than 1% of the 67,000 Heer were SS veterans. Of these only 45 were commisioned. The defence minister had to approve these as well as (highly unlikely) any applicants from the SD, former Gestapo, Stahlhelm members but also POWs who had co-operated with the Soviets! General Frido von Senger und Etterlin played a critical part in setting the tone in insisting on the highest of standards for applicants (officers I imagine here).

I'll see if there's more of interest tomorrow.

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Re: From Wehrmacht to Bundeswehr

#11

Post by Adam Carr » 12 Dec 2008, 13:21

Thanks for that. I notice von Senger und Etterlin didn't serve on the eastern front either. Obviously they wanted generals with relatively clean hands.

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Re: From Wehrmacht to Bundeswehr

#12

Post by Adam Carr » 12 Dec 2008, 13:26

By the end of 1956, despite lots of public hostility, 265,000 men had volunteered, although the annual intake was only 70,000 for that year.
Wikipedia says: "The Bundeswehr was officially established on the 200th birthday of Scharnhorst on 12 November 1955. After an amendment of the Basic Law in 1955, West Germany became a member of NATO. In 1956, conscription for all men between the ages of 18 and 45 was introduced." That doesn't seem to square with your suggestion that they were volunteers.

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Re: From Wehrmacht to Bundeswehr

#13

Post by ManfredV » 12 Dec 2008, 14:12

One of the highest ranking former Wehrmacht officers making career in Bundeswehr and NATO was Hans Speidel:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hans_Speidel
Bundeswehr startet with volunteers, but soon conscription was introduced. Bundeswehr is a mixture of conscripted soldiers (Wehrpflichtige) who actually serve for 9 month, professional soldiers serving for some years f.e. 2-12 (Zeitsoldaten) and professionals serving for 20 years or longer (Berufssoldaten).
Former Wehrmacht soldiers started in Bundeswehr with their old ranks or one rank higher. F.e. an uncle of mine was Sergeant (Unteroffizier) in Wehrmacht and joined the new Bundeswehr as Feldwebel.
All soldiers sent to Afghanistan or other missions have the right to refuse that and no conscripted soldiers were sent.

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Re: From Wehrmacht to Bundeswehr

#14

Post by nondescript handle » 12 Dec 2008, 15:03

I wonder whether WW1s Remembrance Day was significant?
No. "Our" Remembrance Day is Volkstrauertag.
In Germany Nov, 11 is generally not perceived as connected to WW1, but as the start of carnival (some Anglo-Saxons unaccustomed to this take offence when they see Germans with funny costumes making bad jokes on Nov, 11).
All soldiers sent to Afghanistan or other missions have the right to refuse that and no conscripted soldiers were sent.
No. Zeitsoldaten and Berufssoldaten don't have the right to refuse "out of area" missions. By becoming career soldiers they in effect volunteered to these missions.
There are conscripts in "out of area" missions, but these are actually volunteers.

Edit/PS:
They are also the first German soldiers to die in a good cause since the Battle of Leipzig in 1814.
So defending Holstein in the First Schleswig War or defending Germany in 1870/71 were not good causes?

Regards
Mark

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Re: From Wehrmacht to Bundeswehr

#15

Post by JamesL » 12 Dec 2008, 19:12

I seem to recall that "Mein Guter Kamerad" was played when President Ronald Reagan visited the German Army Cemetery at Bitburg.

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