From Wehrmacht to Bundeswehr

[Tim Smith]

On the other hand, the East German Army uniforms looked VERY 'Prussian' indeed!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_People's_Army

http://www.tridentmilitary.com/EG-Uniforms.htm

This is likely the main reason that the Bundeswehr had to look very different. Not because of Wehrmacht memories - but to be different from the NVA 'enemy'.

[kstdk]

Hello

Some interesting reading regarding this topic here:

http://www.gerline.de/wb/pages/1950--19 ... chrift.php

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Himmeroder_Denkschrift

http://www.google.dk/search?hl=da&q=Him ... rift&meta=

Regards
Kurt
kstdk

[Adam Carr]

I visited the NVA museum at Prora in May and it is indeed striking how the DDR, for all its rhetoric about "West German militarism" and "revanchism" adopted most of the Prussian military tradtion without amendment, including the goose-step, and without any of the efforts that the BRD made to genuinely democratise the military. I imagine the fact that the DDR included most of what was left of the Prussian heartland had something to do with this, although in the early days it must also have followed Soviet instructions. Apparently the Soviets, having fought the Wehrmacht for four years, knew a good army when they saw one, and tried to create a communist version of it for their own ends.

[Mikko H.]

One has to remember that at the time (mid-1950s) East German government was keen to claim that East Germans were the 'real' Germans when compared to the US-controlled 'imperialist puppets' in West Germany. This is IMO the most probable reason why the NVA adopted the Wehrmacht uniform sans the swastika-clutching eagle.

In fact I have seen an East-German propaganda film dating from the time the NVA was formed. The narrator proudly stated that the NVA uniform followed the German traditions unlike the Americanized West Germans!

[Urmel]

The Berlin police couldn't look less Prussian if they tried. They wear baggy green jackets and pants, they slouch around with their hands in their pockets and they smoke on duty.

Yeah, embarassing I agree, but that's today, and not 1956. I'd like to see some documentation that the uniform choice was a conscious attempt to denazify the young Bundeswehr. Certainly for the dress uniform I would not agree - it's just ugly, but neither baggy nor shapeless.

Also have a look at this, where it is claimed that the uniform was changed in 1959 following concerns about its similarity to the Wehrmacht uniform.

http://www.battlefront.com/resources/po ... rmany.html

That's rather a different timelime from the one Tsouras seems to suggest.

[Larso]

If I'm understanding the ibid thing correctly, Tsouras' source was 'Reforging the Iron Cross' by Donald Abenheim, subtitled 'The search for tradition in the West German Armed Forces', (Princeton Uni Press, 1988), page 153. It would be interesting if someone has access to this so we can see what the sources source was!

The full passage in Tsouras is - '' The most obvious failure in this regard was the miserable selection of the new uniform, a baggy and shapeless double-breasted suit of 'gray sacking' that was intentionally chosen as a break with German tradition. American-style collar insignia and helmets, new rank badges and webbing belts did exactly that. The uniform was chosen apparently because a group of young soldiers liked it. It was met with derision in public and was an acute embarrassment to wear for the veteran soldier."

From the tone of the passage 'chosen apparently' by a group of young soldiers I suspect Tsouras is sceptical of this explanation and probably he feels it was thrown together by a committe with a very anti-military ideology.

[PiretBCN]

The Estonian documentary about the Battle of the Blue Hills (in 1944) has an interview with a German lieutenant called Kurt Ewert. It says at the end of the documentary that he later joined the Bundeswehr and served there till the rank of Generalmajor. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GdJxwOgTFGU at 9:30

[P64inDixie]

With the fall of the German Democratic Republic, the last great German Army, the Nationale Volksarmee, was disbanded.

[Adam Carr]

Perhaps you meant to say "the last putrefied relic of Prussian militarism." The German people can be very proud that for the first time in their entire history they now have a military entirely under democratic control, not contaminated by either fascism or communism, and serving the cause of peace and security for German, Europe and the world.

[P64inDixie]

Perhaps you meant to say "the last putrefied relic of Prussian militarism."

I say potato, you say putrefied relic...to each his own. We obviously have two very different views on German military tradition, that's fine.

[Adam Carr]

Would you suggest to these gentlemen that they don't belong to a real German army in which the good parts of German military tradition are preserved and respected?

[Urmel]

I'd pay money to be there when this is suggested by some nutbar to the guys carrying the coffin in person, when they're out of uniform.

[Michate]

The Bundeswehr may, I am convinced, still have many fine soldiers, and some first rate equipment as well, and soldiers that have died in service certainly have my fullest respect.

But speaking of the institution, there is not very much reason to be proud of what started from the beginning as an unwanted step-child of the state, rejecting most of what traditionally made German soldiers fight bravely and well, has over the last years increasingly become a travesty of an army, preoccupied with extremely silly ideological fancies (Gorch Fock) and is now engaging in virtually everything, except the defense of our country and people.

It is revealing to read some critical insiders, like Günzel, or Uhle-Wettler.

[Adam Carr]

now engaging in virtually everything, except the defense of our country and people.

Against what? You think the French are going to try a sneak attack on the Rhineland one day soon? There are no threats to Germany's security in the traditional sense of a hostile state on its borders. The role of defence forces in modern Europe is to contribute to regional security and to be available to both NATO and the UN for deployment to trouble spots wherever they may be: Bosnia, Somalia, Libya, Afghanistan. This may be for peacekeeping, disaster relief or counter-insurgency, depending on the circumstances. I hope the Bundeswehr has its maps of Syria up to date.

[Michate]

Against what?

Have a walk through some large German city of your choice and you will see against what.

There are no threats to Germany's security in the traditional sense of a hostile state on its borders. The role of defence forces in modern Europe is to contribute to regional security and to be available to both NATO and the UN for deployment to trouble spots wherever they may be: Bosnia, Somalia, Libya, Afghanistan. This may be for peacekeeping, disaster relief or counter-insurgency, depending on the circumstances. I hope the Bundeswehr has its maps of Syria up to date.

I have nothing to argue with people fed up with such preposterous superstitions.