The Polish area under Prussian control

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Peter K
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The Polish area under Prussian control

Post by Peter K » 06 Nov 2010 01:51

If it comes to this issue:
Domen121 wrote: Moreover, "Westpreussen" is not even a historically justifiable name of this land. Just like Neuostpreußen (areas of eastern Mazovia), Südpreußen (area of Warsaw), Netze-Distrikt (Cuiavia), Neuschlesien (western part of Cracow Voivodeship), Galizien (Lesser Poland), Königreich Galizien und Lodomerien mit dem Großherzogtum Krakau und den Herzogtümern Auschwitz und Zator (Austrian-occupied Poland), Привислинский кра / Priwislinskij kraj (Russian-occupied Poland), etc. - all of these names were "invented" during the partitions in late 18th century.
Well, maybe Galizien und Lodomerien has some historical background.

"Galizien" / "Galicja" probably originated from "Halych" / "Halicz" (Haliczja?, Halychien?; H = G in Russian)

There was a medieval Ruthenian kingdom of Halych-Wolhynia in that area, later conquered by Poland.

Maybe "Lodomerien" / "Lodomeria" have some connections with "Wolhynia" / "Wolyn" then.

history1
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Re: The murder of about 5000+ Volksdeutsche in Westpreußen

Post by history1 » 08 Nov 2010 15:37

Prusy Zachodnie (niem. Westpreußen) – prowincja państwa pruskiego, a potem zjednoczonych w XIX w. Niemiec (do 1945 r.). Powstała na początku 1773, po I rozbiorze Polski i włączeniu Pomorza Gdańskiego do Prus.

Source: http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prusy_Zachodnie

Babelfish - translation:
West Prussia (in German: Westpreussen) - province of the Prussian state and then united in the nineteenth century with Germany (until 1945). Established in early 1773, after the I. partition of Poland and turned Gdańsk Pomerania to Prussia.

SashaWa
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The murder of about 5000+ Volksdeutsche in Westpreußen

Post by SashaWa » 11 Nov 2010 20:52

history1 wrote:Sorry Marcus,
I only answered Domen121 claim:""Westpreussen" is not even a historically justifiable name of this land."
You confirmed that-the area in question was called Pomorze Gdańskie not Westprussen which was an artificial name given by Prussians after their conquest of Poland and later used by Nazis in WW2.Since annexation of Polish territory was not legal in WW2, thus the Polish name should be used unless we want to give legitimacy to either Nazis or Polish partitions.

Peter K
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Re: The murder of about 5000+ Volksdeutsche in Westpreußen

Post by Peter K » 11 Nov 2010 22:48

which was an artificial name given by Prussians after their conquest of Poland and later used by Nazis in WW2.
Exactly that was my point.

Contrary to Ostpreussen (originally just Preussen), Westpreussen was an artificial name, historically not justifiable.

Prussia or Preussen (later Ostpreussen) on the other hand is a historically justifiable and not artificial name, because it originates from the Baltic nation of pagan Prussians, conquered by the Teutonic Order in 13th century.

While the area which was named "Westpreussen" in 1793, had never been inhabited by Prussians before.

Thanks,
Peter

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Re: The murder of about 5000+ Volksdeutsche in Westpreußen

Post by Jan-Hendrik » 12 Nov 2010 06:13

Domen121 wrote:
which was an artificial name given by Prussians after their conquest of Poland and later used by Nazis in WW2.

While the area which was named "Westpreussen" in 1793, had never been inhabited by Prussians before.

Thanks,
Peter
BS...the western border of the Pruzzen settlement was the Weichsel :roll:

SO you may split further hairs about a more than 200 years olde geographical name :idea:

Jan-Hendrik

Peter K
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Re: Why Westpreussen is an artificial name & (Ost)Preussen i

Post by Peter K » 12 Nov 2010 12:05

BS...the western border of the Pruzzen settlement was the Weichsel
Indeed. And Westpreussen is located almost entirely west of the river Wisla:

http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prusowie

http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plik:Danzi ... eussen.png

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Re: The murder of about 5000+ Volksdeutsche in Westpreußen

Post by SashaWa » 12 Nov 2010 13:57

Jan-Hendrik wrote:
Domen121 wrote:

BS...the western border of the Pruzzen settlement was the Weichsel :roll:
It's Vistula in English not "Weichsel"(which is purely German form). And no it did not.

Peter K
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Re: Why Westpreussen is an artificial name & (Ost)Preussen i

Post by Peter K » 12 Nov 2010 23:43

Anyway - Neuostpreußen (areas of eastern Mazovia), Südpreußen (area of Warsaw), Netze-Distrikt (Cuiavia), Neuschlesien (western part of Cracow Voivodeship), Galizien (Lesser Poland), Königreich Galizien und Lodomerien mit dem Großherzogtum Krakau und den Herzogtümern Auschwitz und Zator (Austrian-occupied Poland), Привислинский кра / Priwislinskij kraj (Russian-occupied Poland) - are all artificial names, without any historical justification.

These names were invented after the partitions of Poland, in case of Priwislinskij kraj after the dissolution of the Kingdom of Poland in 1874. This was part of the policy of Germanization / Russification of these lands.

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Re: Why Westpreussen is an artificial name & (Ost)Preussen i

Post by David Thompson » 13 Nov 2010 01:38

A post from Jan-Hendrick, containing an offensive personal remark about another poster, was removed by this moderator along with a now-unnecessary response - DT.

Ken S.
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Re: Why Westpreussen is an artificial name & (Ost)Preussen i

Post by Ken S. » 13 Nov 2010 05:31

Pretty pointless discussion if you ask me. The legitimacy of a name depends on whether those using it can enforce its usage; whether or not it has any historical basis is beside the point. If that was the criteria then "Poland" is an artificial term as well. For a country that was reconstituted under questionable circumstance about a century after it legally ceased to exist no less.

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Re: Why Westpreussen is an artificial name & (Ost)Preussen i

Post by Peter K » 13 Nov 2010 21:24

about a century after it legally ceased to exist
Legally? If you mean "legally" as "on legal basis", then I don't think so.

If you mean "legally" as "de facto / formally", then this is also not fully correct.

More or less independent and sovereign Poland almost constantly existed in the meantime.

Just to mention: Duchy of Warsaw, Kingdom of Poland, etc.
For a country that was reconstituted
Restored.

Or even "liberated from enslavement" - according to Polish constitution from 1921.
under questionable circumstance
What do you mean?
If that was the criteria then "Poland" is an artificial term as well.
That's why it was called the "II Republic of Poland" to distinguish it from the 1st one.
then "Poland" is an artificial term as well.
No since it originates from the Polanie tribe, just like Germany comes from Germanic tribes.

grassi
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Re: Why Westpreussen is an artificial name & (Ost)Preussen i

Post by grassi » 13 Nov 2010 23:50

just like Germany comes from Germanic tribes
Hm, just for interest:
Was there a germanic tribe which called itself "germanic" before Caesar?
Was it legitimate by the Greeks and Romans to call those people "Germans"?
;-)

Best regards

grassi

Ken S.
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Re: Why Westpreussen is an artificial name & (Ost)Preussen i

Post by Ken S. » 14 Nov 2010 02:05

Domen121 wrote: Restored.

Or even "liberated from enslavement" - according to Polish constitution from 1921.
Sorry, I should be more clear: a territory that was, under questionable circumstances, reconstituted to form what a country that actually legally ceased to exist a century earlier.

Show me when and where Poles were ever legally "enslaved" in any part of Germany or any German territory throughout history. I can only think of one manner in which Poles have been enslaved--but I prefer not to turn this into a religious discussion.

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Re: Why Westpreussen is an artificial name & (Ost)Preussen i

Post by Peter K » 14 Nov 2010 03:09

Poland as a country was enslaved in 1795, not Poles.

Unless forced labor in the Reich in 1939 - 1945 cannot be considered a form of "enslavement".
Sorry, I should be more clear: a territory that was, under questionable circumstances, reconstituted to form what a country that actually legally ceased to exist a century earlier.
"Questionable circumstances" = ? (your description / explanation / definition)
"Legally" = ? (your description / explanation / definition)
I can only think of one manner in which Poles have been enslaved--but I prefer not to turn this into a religious discussion.
So you think of Kulturkampf? Or what?

Ken S.
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Re: Why Westpreussen is an artificial name & (Ost)Preussen i

Post by Ken S. » 14 Nov 2010 07:30

Domen121 wrote:Poland as a country was enslaved in 1795, not Poles.
And it specifically states this in the 1921 constitution?
Unless forced labor in the Reich in 1939 - 1945 cannot be considered a form of "enslavement".
Sorry, I should have been more clear. You stated that according to the 1921 constitution the Poles were "liberated from enslavement". Show me where Poles were actually living in slavery, then, if the 1921 constitution "freed" them.

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