The Polish area under Prussian control

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Baltasar
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Re: Gdansk restored to Poland after WW1?

#121

Post by Baltasar » 25 Aug 2011, 07:08

Domen121 wrote:So what exactly do you doubt?
The relevance of the information for the What if.

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Re: Gdansk restored to Poland after WW1?

#122

Post by Sid Guttridge » 25 Aug 2011, 11:39

Hi Baltasar,

The map remains relevant because it contains German population statistics for Danzig immediately prior to WWI.

It also also shows clearly that even German census statistics from before WWI (and I have separate information from Domen for 1900) show clearly that there was a Polish majority corridor to the Baltic, regardless of the situation within Danzig. This may not be directly relevant to the thread title, but it is always worth repeating.


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Re: Gdansk restored to Poland after WW1?

#123

Post by Baltasar » 25 Aug 2011, 12:22

It's rather tiring if unrelevant information is being repeatedly posted. There's certainly many other places where such information might eventually be useful, this thread is not such a place. As stated before, you'll always find a majority of X if you narrow the place down enough. That said, a local majority can easily be a minority in a slightly larger picture, the larger picture being East Prussia in this case.

Furthermore, reviving a thread which luckily had been burried after it's initiator had been rightfully banned, is another reason to leave this thread alone. There's always the possibility of starting another thread and the information given here would surely fit in a lot better there.

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Re: Gdansk restored to Poland after WW1?

#124

Post by Piotr Kapuscinski » 25 Aug 2011, 12:55

it contains German population statistics for Danzig immediately prior to WWI
Rather Polish - 3,4% in Stadt Gdansk; 13,1% in entire Free City Danzig (including other towns & countryside).
As stated before, you'll always find a majority of X if you narrow the place down enough. That said, a local majority can easily be a minority in a slightly larger picture, the larger picture being East Prussia in this case.
Well, one of the basic principles of democratic elections is to narrow each electoral district down in order to achieve as representative result is possible. Narrowing down is not manipulation - larger pictures are manipulations.

E.g. if entire Poland was one single-member constituancy, we would have 100% of PO deputies in the Sejm.

Although PO is the most popular political party, 100% of PO deputies would not be representative.

If for example Poles were 49% of population in a "larger picture" area X and Germans were 51% in that area - and you would grant entire area to Germany basing on ethnic criteria - this would have been a manipulation.

Instead, the area should be divided into smaller parts and then each part assigned justly.
That said, a local majority can easily be a minority in a slightly larger picture, the larger picture being East Prussia in this case.
And in a "slightly" larger picture - for example area from the Rhine river to the Bug river in this case - a local majority between the Warthe and the Bug (= ethnic Poles) - could also easily be a minority. :D

Even today Poles would be a minority in the area between the Rhine and the Bug, since Germany has more than two times bigger population than Poland - as the result Poles would be less than 1/3 in this area. So maybe entire area between the Rhine and the Bug should be German - basing on this "slightly larger picture"? :wink:

As I wrote - larger pictures are manipulations. Narrowing down to level of county or parish is correct.

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Re: Gdansk restored to Poland after WW1?

#125

Post by Baltasar » 25 Aug 2011, 13:44

That is where we obviously do have different opinions. By the same example, you could narrow down to certain parts of cities and come to the conclusion that a specific ethnic group would be the majority, while the same is not true for the whole city. Deliberately slicing down areas until the data fits into your agenda is not the way to go, it's manipulation as well.

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Re: Gdansk restored to Poland after WW1?

#126

Post by Piotr Kapuscinski » 26 Aug 2011, 01:51

Deliberately slicing down areas until the data fits into your agenda
Who said about that ???

I said only about slicing down areas - not about slicing them "until the data fits into one's agenda". Author of that map used equal methods everywhere - not various methods, depending on which fitted "his agenda" best.

In this case that "equal method" was measuring ethnic structures of population in each county.

In some counties such a method was favourable for Poles, in some other counties - not.

But equal method - measuring data for each county - was applied to each region on that map.

And in southern counties of East Prussia Poles were majority.

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Re: Gdansk restored to Poland after WW1?

#127

Post by Baltasar » 26 Aug 2011, 06:19

It's really the same system which you tried to ridicule further up. The scope you're using will always favor the one or the other outcome.

Besides, I believe I've politely asked you not to tear my comments apart. Ironically, that is also a way of "slicing down until it fits".

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Re: Gdansk restored to Poland after WW1?

#128

Post by Piotr Kapuscinski » 26 Aug 2011, 17:56

It's really the same system which you tried to ridicule further up.
Not really ???

You wanted to count population in entire East Prussia, instead of in each county of East Prussia.

But it is true that one can designate borders of counties in such a way, that they are more favourable for one ethnic group - just like one can mainipulate borders of electoral districts in favour of one political party. However, in 1910 ethnic Poles had no influence on the way of designating borders, since they didn't even have their own independent state. So if anyone could manipulate "ethnic matters" - it would be partitioners of Poland, not Poles.
Besides, I believe I've politely asked you not to tear my comments apart. Ironically, that is also a way of "slicing down until it fits".
It is called Selective Quoting. I did it again - sorry. Let's fix it below:
It's really the same system which you tried to ridicule further up. The scope you're using will always favor the one or the other outcome.

Besides, I believe I've politely asked you not to tear my comments apart. Ironically, that is also a way of "slicing down until it fits".

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Re: Gdansk restored to Poland after WW1?

#129

Post by Baltasar » 26 Aug 2011, 19:26

Domen121 wrote:
It's really the same system which you tried to ridicule further up.
Not really ???

You wanted to count population in entire East Prussia, instead of in each county of East Prussia.

But it is true that one can designate borders of counties in such a way, that they are more favourable for one ethnic group - just like one can mainipulate borders of electoral districts in favour of one political party. However, in 1910 ethnic Poles had no influence on the way of designating borders, since they didn't even have their own independent state. So if anyone could manipulate "ethnic matters" - it would be partitioners of Poland, not Poles.
In the end, all you can deduce from that graphic is that Poles were a majority in a rather small minority of counties within East Prussia. That in itself does not mean that the Poles should be allowed to 'move' the counties in which they are a majority to the state of Poland, unless all other local majorities within Poland are allowed to do the same.

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Re: Gdansk restored to Poland after WW1?

#130

Post by Piotr Kapuscinski » 26 Aug 2011, 20:43

That in itself does not mean that the Poles should be allowed to 'move' the counties in which they are a majority to the state of Poland, unless all other local majorities within Poland are allowed to do the same.
Local German majority in Danzig was allowed to form a Free City, instead of being part of Poland.

Local German majority in westernmost counties of Greater Poland, was allowed to move to the state of Germany.

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Re: Gdansk restored to Poland after WW1?

#131

Post by Baltasar » 26 Aug 2011, 22:29

Domen121 wrote:
That in itself does not mean that the Poles should be allowed to 'move' the counties in which they are a majority to the state of Poland, unless all other local majorities within Poland are allowed to do the same.
Local German majority in Danzig was allowed to form a Free City, instead of being part of Poland.
...instead of joining the Weimar Republic.
Local German majority in westernmost counties of Greater Poland, was allowed to move to the state of Germany.
Do you mean the counties or the population of the counties? Eg, there were German majorities west of Torun which remained within the second Polish Republic.

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Re: Gdansk restored to Poland after WW1?

#132

Post by Piotr Kapuscinski » 26 Aug 2011, 23:27

...instead of joining the Weimar Republic.
Well, Danzig was vital for Polish trade.

If Danzig was given to Weimar Republic, Poland would be economically dependent on Germany.

Just like today some part of Europe is economically dependent on Russian gasoline.

And if Vladimir "has a bad day", he cuts off gasoline supplies for Ukraine, for example. :wink:

And if Belarus "is naughty", Vladimir also cuts off gasoline supplies - for Belarus this time.

If Danzig was Weimar's, Weimar could "have a bad day" and put embargo on Poland, for example.

In case if Poland was "naughty", of course.
Do you mean the counties or the population of the counties?
I mean the counties, not the population of the counties.

Some westernmost counties of Provinz Posen (i.e. Greater Poland) remained within Germany.
Eg, there were German majorities west of Torun which remained within the second Polish Republic.
Yes. But there were also Polish majorities in the Upper Silesia which remained within Germany.

I am talking about Polish majorities between the final border and the Korfanty Line:

Check this map:

http://forum.axishistory.com/download/f ... &mode=view

As you can see some areas which actually voted for Poland in the plebiscite, remained within Germany.

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Re: Gdansk restored to Poland after WW1?

#133

Post by Baltasar » 27 Aug 2011, 12:40

Domen121 wrote:
...instead of joining the Weimar Republic.
Well, Danzig was vital for Polish trade.

Then economical interests were more important than the will of the people? Even after another harbor was built with money from France and Britain?
Eg, there were German majorities west of Torun which remained within the second Polish Republic.
Yes. But there were also Polish majorities in the Upper Silesia which remained within Germany.

I am talking about Polish majorities between the final border and the Korfanty Line:

Check this map:

http://forum.axishistory.com/download/f ... &mode=view

As you can see some areas which actually voted for Poland in the plebiscite, remained within Germany.
As you can see, the same is true vice versa, German majorities who had to remain in Poland.

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Re: Gdansk restored to Poland after WW1?

#134

Post by Piotr Kapuscinski » 27 Aug 2011, 12:59

Even after another harbor was built with money from France and Britain?
What "money from France and Britain"? Do you know when Gdynia was built?
Then economical interests were more important than the will of the people?
During history of our civilization always economical interests have been more important. Also today economical interests are more important - that's why Libyan rebels have received help while Syrian rebels have not.

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Re: Gdansk restored to Poland after WW1?

#135

Post by Lokanski » 27 Aug 2011, 13:43

Baltasar wrote:
As you can see, the same is true vice versa, German majorities who had to remain in Poland.
This is indeed true. What was needed was a population transfer after the border change, similar to the one for which a Noble Peace Prize was awarded in case of Greek-Turkish exchange.

Regarding the main topic at hand-as history has shown Germany proved to be a bigger threat to Poland trying to erase it permanently and exterminate Polish nation led by racist ideology,compared to relatively less brutal Soviet desire to politically control Poles(although using murder as tool)

Reorienting Polish priorities towards defending from German aggression, while at the same time sparing the resources required to build Gdynia would be beneficial. If Poland from the start would focus on German aggression, it might have been also more conformable to sorting out its issues with Czechoslovakia.
If Germany would be faced with war against France, Poland and Czechoslovaks it might have lost early on, sparing us its extermination efforts.

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