The Polish area under Prussian control

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Peter K
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Re: Why Westpreussen is an artificial name & (Ost)Preussen i

Post by Peter K » 14 Nov 2010 13:30

Ken S. wrote:And it specifically states this in the 1921 constitution?
Not in the normative part of the constitution of course, but in its preamble.

Preamble of the constitution of March 1921:

Translation:

In the name of Almighty God!
We, the Polish Nation, thanking Providence for liberating us from a hundred years long enslavement *, remembering with gratitude the courage and perseverance of sacrificial struggle of generations, who their best efforts constantly devoted to the case of independence, referring to the great tradition of the memorable Constitution of May 3 - bearing in mind the welfare of the entire united and independent Mother Homeland, and desiring to reassure its independent existence, power and safety, as well as social order on everlasting principles of law and freedom, desiring also to ensure the development of its moral and material forces for the sake of entire renascent humanity, protecting equality, respect for labor, owing rights and special state care of all citizens of Rzeczpospolita - this here's Constitutional Act on the Legislative Sejm of Rzeczpospolita Polska resolve and proclaim.

In Polish:

W imię Boga Wszechmogącego!
My, Naród Polski, dziękując Opatrzności za wyzwolenie nas z półtorawiekowej niewoli *, wspominając z wdzięcznością męstwo i wytrwałość ofiarnej walki pokoleń, które najlepsze wysiłki sprawie niepodległości bez przerwy poświęcały, nawiązując do świetnej tradycji wiekopomnej Konstytucji 3-go Maja - dobro całej zjednoczonej i niepodległej Matki Ojczyzny mając na oku, a pragnąc jej byt niepodległy, potęgę i bezpieczeństwo, oraz ład społeczny utwierdzić na wiekuistych zasadach prawa i wolności, pragnąc zarazem zapewnić rozwój jej sił moralnych i materialnych dla dobra całej odradzającej się ludzkości, wszystkim obywatelom Rzeczypospolitej równość, a pracy poszanowanie, należne prawa i szczególną opiekę Państwa zabezpieczyć - tę oto Ustawę Konstytucyjną na Sejmie Ustawodawczym Rzeczypospolitej Polskiej uchwalamy i stanowimy.

* Niewola (according to Google Translate) =

1.slavery
2.captivity
3.bondage
4.servitude
5.enslavement
6.thraldom
7.thrall
8.yoke

Ken S.
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Re: Why Westpreussen is an artificial name & (Ost)Preussen i

Post by Ken S. » 14 Nov 2010 18:04

Domen121 wrote:
Ken S. wrote:And it specifically states this in the 1921 constitution?
Not in the normative part of the constitution of course, but in its preamble.
Yes which makes it fanciful rhetoric and not substantive acknowledgment that Poles were actually enslaved. Your logic would dictate that many German-speaking peoples were "enslaved" by Slavics prior to the war hence WWI was in part a justifiable war of liberation.

Peter K
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Re: Why Westpreussen is an artificial name & (Ost)Preussen i

Post by Peter K » 14 Nov 2010 18:49

hence WWI was in part a justifiable war of liberation.
WWI ???
Your logic would dictate that many German-speaking peoples were "enslaved" by Slavics
I didn't know Germany was ever under Slavic occupation prior to 1945.
and not substantive acknowledgment that Poles were actually enslaved.
If one state liquitades and occupies another state, this can be called enslavement - some form of it.

Germany was never occupied and liquidated by Poland. There were only territorial disputes.

What happened in 1795 was not just land grabbing, but liquidation of entire country by Russia, Prussia & Austria.

Ken S.
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Re: Why Westpreussen is an artificial name & (Ost)Preussen i

Post by Ken S. » 14 Nov 2010 19:59

Domen121 wrote: WWI ???


I didn't know Germany was ever under Slavic occupation prior to 1945.
Yes, WWI. The war that the Russians started in 1914.

German-speaking were settled throughout eastern Europe and southern Russia. They were subject to systemic discrimination and persecution long before the war began.
If one state liquitades and occupies another state, this can be called enslavement - some form of it.

Germany was never occupied and liquidated by Poland. There were only territorial disputes.

What happened in 1795 was not just land grabbing, but liquidation of entire country by Russia, Prussia & Austria.
Show me a part of Europe that hasn't been a part of a liquidated and occupied state at some point.

By your logic at any time "Poland" did exist, it consisted of states that previously had been "liquidated" and would of contained some citizens who considered their land to be "occupied".

What happened in 1795 was that the Poles who themselves were engaged in the political games of the period proved themselves too incapable and weak to resist more powerful players. Live by the sword, die by the sword.

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Re: Why Westpreussen is an artificial name & (Ost)Preussen i

Post by Peter K » 14 Nov 2010 20:12

German-speaking were settled throughout eastern Europe and southern Russia.
Just like Polish-speaking are settled throughout North America and Britain.

And what?
They were subject to systemic discrimination and persecution long before the war began.
Where and by whom?
Yes, WWI. The war that the Russians started in 1914.
WWI was started by Austro-Hungarians and Germans, not by Russians:

28.07.1914 - Austro-Hungary declares war on Serbia
31.07.1914 - German ultimatum to France
01.08.1914 - Germany declares war on Russia
02.08.1914 - German forces invade Luxemburg
03.08.1914 - Germany declares war on France
03.08.1914 - German forces invade Belgium
04.08.1914 - Great Britain declares war on Germany
05.08.1914 - the USA announces neutrality in the war
08.08.1914 - Montenegro declares war on Germany
23.08.1914 - Japan declares war on Germany
21.10.1914 - Turkish fleet blocks Bosphorus and Dardanelles
29.10.1914 - Turkish fleet attacks Russian coastline
02.11.1914 - Russia, Great Britain and France declare war on Turkey
05.11.1914 - other Entente states declare war on Turkey
12.11.1914 - Turkey announces Jihad

Etc., etc.

So clearly and undoubtedly Austro-Hungarians and Germans started WW1.
By your logic at any time "Poland" did exist, it consisted of states that previously had been "liquidated" and would of contained some citizens who considered their land to be "occupied".
There were no states in this area before Poland, just various tribes.
Last edited by Peter K on 14 Nov 2010 20:27, edited 3 times in total.

SashaWa
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Re: Why Westpreussen is an artificial name & (Ost)Preussen i

Post by SashaWa » 14 Nov 2010 20:18

Ken S. wrote: Yes, WWI. The war that the Russians started in 1914.
And I think we don't need to read the rest of the post from that point on...

Ken S.
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Re: Why Westpreussen is an artificial name & (Ost)Preussen i

Post by Ken S. » 14 Nov 2010 20:25

Domen121 wrote:Just like Polish-speaking are settled throughout North America and Britain.

And what?
Show me where they were mistreated like Germans settled in Slavic countries were.

Where and by whom?
Don't deny it.
There were no states in this area before Poland, just various tribes.
Well, well, you've just proved my point.

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Re: Why Westpreussen is an artificial name & (Ost)Preussen i

Post by SashaWa » 14 Nov 2010 20:30

Don't deny it.
Deny why? That German nationalists were denied their Lebensraum? That they were denied ruling over Poles and Russians in WW1 aftermath like they ruled over genocided Herero? What are you talking about?

Peter K
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Re: Why Westpreussen is an artificial name & (Ost)Preussen i

Post by Peter K » 14 Nov 2010 20:30

Show me where they were mistreated like Germans settled in Slavic countries were.
In which Slavic countries Germans were mistreated.

And in which of them they were mistreated before WW1?
Don't deny it.
I'm just asking where and by whom.

If you claim something you should elaborate more on this, provide sources, etc.
Well, well, you've just proved my point.
Then what state was in the area of modern Poland before Poland?

Atlantis maybe? :lol:
Just like Polish-speaking are settled throughout North America and Britain.

And what?
Show me where they were mistreated
To be honest, I have never been researching this. But maybe here you will find something:

A wikipedia article on antipolonism (check point 8.3 United Kingdom and 8.4 United States):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Polis ... ed_Kingdom

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Re: Why Westpreussen is an artificial name & (Ost)Preussen i

Post by SashaWa » 14 Nov 2010 21:05

Then what state was in the area of modern Poland before Poland?
Greater Moravia in small parts of Silesia I guess could qualify :) But still that's a Slavic one, unless some Nazi or German nationalist theory claims it was led by Germans(as they claim Mieszko was and so on) :D
Last edited by SashaWa on 14 Nov 2010 22:38, edited 1 time in total.

Peter K
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Re: Why Westpreussen is an artificial name & (Ost)Preussen i

Post by Peter K » 14 Nov 2010 21:41

Greater Moravia in snall parts of Silesia I guess could qualify
True, I forgot about Great Moravia.
But still that's a Slavic one, unless some Nazi or German nationalist theory claims it was led by Germans
Mojmír, Rastislav, Slavomir, Svatopluk - all these names sound so "Germanic" after all. :wink:

Ken S.
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Re: Why Westpreussen is an artificial name & (Ost)Preussen i

Post by Ken S. » 14 Nov 2010 23:13

Domen121 wrote: In which Slavic countries Germans were mistreated.

And in which of them they were mistreated before WW1?


I've already stated where this was happening.
Then what state was in the area of modern Poland before Poland?
so what your saying is that Poland's current borders constitutes the "restored" borders of a previous Poland?
To be honest, I have never been researching this. But maybe here you will find something:
What does Poles living in North American and Britain have to do with Slavs persecuting Germans in Slavic territories?

Peter K
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Re: Why Westpreussen is an artificial name & (Ost)Preussen i

Post by Peter K » 14 Nov 2010 23:49

No, what I was saying was: "What state was in the area of Poland before Poland?".

And before Poland = before 10th / 9th century after Christ.

BTW - video showing maps of Poland and its border changes since 960 until 2010:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z6tM5sI2wXg


I've already stated where this was happening.
The only country you mentioned so far was southern Russia.

So this was happening in southern part of Russia?

But what exactly was happening there?

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Re: Why Westpreussen is an artificial name & (Ost)Preussen i

Post by SashaWa » 15 Nov 2010 01:09

so what your saying is that Poland's current borders constitutes the "restored" borders of a previous Poland?
Looking at this map from 1917-yeah they kind of do
Image

I've already stated where this was happening.
Yes, you have stated many things without any source or any details.
What does Poles living in North American and Britain have to do with Slavs persecuting Germans in Slavic territories?
That's a strange statement-there is no common Slavic identity nor Slavic people-they are various nations from Slavic background. Are you talking about 8-9th century or something?

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Re: Why Westpreussen is an artificial name & (Ost)Preussen i

Post by Ken S. » 15 Nov 2010 01:50

SashaWa wrote: Looking at this map from 1917-yeah they kind of do
But those aren't the current borders. I didn't ask if the current Poland "kind of" looks like a previous Poland; I asked if the current borders are that of a previous Poland. So you are kind of supporting my argument by posting that image. Moreover, one has to ask why that Poland rather than the one of his son's? And the fact that those poor Yotvingians no longer have their homeland because later was incorporated into one form of Poland or another, also proves my point. The current Poland is situated on a previously existing territory that was "liquidated".
That's a strange statement-there is no common Slavic identity nor Slavic people-they are various nations from Slavic background. Are you talking about 8-9th century or something?
It's in response to a response about Germans in Slavic territories; in other words, my statement about Germans in Slavic territories was countered with something to do with so-called "anti-polonism".

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