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Peter K
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Re: Stettin and Pomerania in the 12th century

Post by Peter K » 08 Dec 2012 14:14

but I doubt that early medieval settlements were so clean and tidy, and the garments of the people so brilliantly white.
They were cleaner than the 19th century industrial cities and the peoples in them.

The modern stereotype of the Early Middle Ages as an "age of dirt" is far from the truth.

Even if stereotypes about Medieval Christian Europe having negative attitude to cleannes are partially true, the Slavic cities located along the Baltic Coast in the early 12th century were still mostly Pagan, not Christian.

Of course the problem with excrement was the problem of all big Medieval cities - but cities located in seacoast regions had a somehow easier way to deal with them than cities located in inland areas. :wink:
But the bottom line is that by the end of the Medieval period the city of Stettin, and all the territory from the Elbe to the Oder and some way beyond had an ethnic German population, apart from small Slavic-speaking enclaves.
Not really. For example the Eastern part of the Western Pomerania (this is area east of the Oder but west of the border of pre-partitions Poland) was Germanized not before the 19th century. Factor which accelerated Germanization of that territory were Prussian government's actions - prohibition of Polish language as language of sermons in churches (including Lutheran churches) and language of lessons in schools.

Here is the list of Evangelical parishes in the Eastern part of the Western Pomerania (Stolp, Bütow and Lauenburg in Pommern counties), in which the language of sermons was Polish until 19th century, when the Prussian authorities started to ban Polish language from those Evangelical parishes:

In the Slupsk (Stolp) county Polish-language sermons were in 6 parishes. At first they were prohibited in Stowęcin (1816), then in Rowy (Rowe) - 1830 -, then in Smołdzino (Schmolsin) - 1833. Then in Gardna Wielka (Groß Garde) - 1850, then in Główczyce (Glowitz) - 1855 - and finally in Cecenowo (Zezenow) - 1876 - and in Kluki (Klucken) - 1890.

In the Bytów (Bütow) county Polish was the language of sermons in Pomysk Wielki (Groß Pomeiske), Jasien and Sominy until 1810, in Borzytuchomin (Borntuchen) until 1828, in Tuchom until 1844 and in Bytów (Bütow) itself - until 1859.

In Lębork (Lauenburg in Pommern) county Polish was the language of sermons: in Garczegórze and Nowa Wieś Lęborska until 1775, in Bożepole Wielkie (Groß Boschpol) until 1809, in Lębork itself until 1820, in Bukowina until 1821, in Brzeźno and Dzięcielec until 1825, in Łebunia until 1830, in Gniewino until 1845, in Łeba (Leba) and Sarbsko until 1850, in Janowice and Zwartowo until 1852, in Salino until 1863, in Osieki until 1865 and in Charbrowo (Charbrow) until 1870.

As the result of prohibition of Polish sermons, Kashubian Evangelical population of that area underwent Germanization within several generations from the moment when Polish sermons were banned in their parishes.

The above given data comes from the article "Rola kościoła ewangelickiego w procesie germanizacji ludności kaszubskiej wschodniej części Pomorza Zachodniego w XIX wieku" ("The role of the Evangelical church in the process of Germanization of the Kashubian population of the eastern part of the Western Pomerania in 19th century"), written by professor Zygmunt Szultka, expert of Pomeranian history, Brandenburgian history and Kashubian history.
That situation was achieved by two processes:

1. The immigration of German-speaking settlers from the Netherlands and Western Germany.
2. The adoption of German language and culture by the existing Slavic population.

The second process did not only affect the lower strata of the Slavic-speaking population; much of the Slavic nobility retained its lands and lordships, and became part of the German nobility, for example in Mecklenburg and Pomerania.
Slavic nobility (as well as urban elites) underwent Germanization much easier and faster than "common people" and peasants. The ruling classes in general adopt the language of the "conquerors" much faster than other classes of the society. The same happened in the East in case of Polonization - Lithuanian and Ruthenian nobility as well as urban elites became Polonized relatively very fast - on the other hand the majority of rural population as well as poor people from the towns remained Ruthenian-speaking or Lithuanian-speaking for a very long time, if not until the end of the Rzeczpospolita Obojga Narodów in late 18th century.

It is generally very hard to Germanize or Polonize entire native population of a particular area if there is no government-sponsored effort to do so. And there was usually not much of government-sponsored effort to Germanize Slavic population of East German areas until the emergence of absolute & militaristic Monarchies such as Prussia.

In Medieval times Saxon and Brandenburgian nobility did not care what language serfs in their villages spoke.

In general the factor which encouraged governments to carry out forced assimilation of "conquered" populations was the introduction of mass conscription - it was in the best interest of an Absolute and Militaristic state that all soldiers of its army spoke the same language and were emotionally connected with / devoted to their country.

Modern Nationalism emerged roughly in the same time when mass conscription was introduced in Europe.

That is why large part of eastern German territories had numerous Slavic-speaking population as long as until late 18th century and early to mid-19th century, when particularly Prussian government started to be actively interested in Germanizing so far non-German elements of the state's population.
A similar process occurred in the Monastic State of the Teutonic Order, where Old Prussians who accepted the rule of the Teutonic Order and did not participate in revolts kept their lands and status as freemen, and eventually became fully germanised. The great majority of the population of East Prussia was ethnically German by the end of the Medieval period, consisting of a mixture of immigrants from Germany, germanised Old Prussians, and germanised immigrants from Poland and Lithuania; immigrants from the two latter areas who retained their Slavic and Baltic languages constituted a small minority.
Warmiacy and Mazurzy (immigrants from Poland) and Kashub population in Teutonic Pomerania certainly did not underwent Germanization. Prussian elites and some Prussian common people probably did - but certainly not all Prussians - until the end of the Medieval. But there were many areas with Prussian-speaking majority even in late 16th and early 17th centuries. Germanization processes in Teutonic state were hampered when it was defeated by Poland-Lithuania and became Poland's vassal. Also part of its territory was then incorporated into the Crown of Poland under the name Royal Prussia - Polonization of nobility & proportion of Polish urban population after that started to increase.

For example in the Teutonic city of Toruń (Thorn) around year 1400 Polish-speaking citizens were around 6.5% of the population of the city center and around 20% of the population of the suburbs. While in the same Toruń (Thorn) but 60 years later - around year 1460 - Polish-speaking citizens were already 27% of the population of the city center and 50% of the population of the suburbs. Later percentage of Poles in Thorn / Toruń continued to increase.
The great majority of the population of East Prussia was ethnically German by the end of the Medieval period,
What do you consider as "the end of the Medieval period"? In 15th century (1401 - 1500) only 40% - up to 50% of the total Teutonic State population spoke German as their primary language. And this is the end of the Medieval period.

After the defeat in the Thirteen Years War of 1454 - 1460 the Teutonic State lost some territories which were inhabited mostly by Polish and Kashubian population - the Royal Prussia - which maybe increased the percentage of German-speaking population in what remained Teutonic territory, but Baltic, Prussian-speaking population was still numerous, and there were also Polish colonists in the southern and south-eastern areas of the Teutonic state.

Easternmost areas of the Teutonic State - e.g. Samogitia - were ethnically Baltic too (Samogitian / Lithuanian).
All the descendants of the original Old Prussians who had remained in East Prussia had become ethnically German by the 17th Century, when the Old Prussian language died out.
True. That was by the end of the 17th century / in the early 18th century, I would say.

But not all of them became ethnically German - some became ethnically Lithuanian or Polish.

By the way - it is interesting that Old Prussians eventually underwent Germanization, while inhabitants of territories conquered by the Livonian Order did not - and while the old Baltic language of Prussians eventually died out, Baltic languages of native inhabitants of territories of modern Latvia and Estonia did not die out and these nations have their independent states nowadays to the north of Lithuania, despite centuries of foreign rules.
Furthermore, almost all the pre-1945 Polish-speaking minority in East Prussia, the so-called Masurians, emigrated to Germany from the 1970s onward, claiming the status of Ethnic German.
Those who emigrated from the 1970s onward emigrated because of poverty in Poland - exploiting the chance for a better life - rather than because of their supposed adherence to the German ethnicity more than to Polish.

Their chance was all about the fact that they could legitimate themselfes with ancestors who had German citizenship before 1939, which means they could get German citizenship in 1970s much easier than other Poles.
1. The immigration of German-speaking settlers from the Netherlands and Western Germany.
Actually the majority of settlers who came to the Teutonic state came from other areas.

As I already wrote I have a book with such statistics (but mainly regarding urban population).

For example immigration to the city of Toruń (Thorn) - already mentioned above regarding its population's ethnic structure - in mid-14th century, was from the following territories (territorial structure of the population):

28% - from the countryside of various areas of the Teutonic State
23% - from the Central-Eastern Germany
12% - from Silesia
4% - from Westphalia
2% - from Saxony and Thuringen
2% - from Bohemia and Moravia
remaining 29% - from various Baltic Sea areas, Poland and Holland

Regarding the city of Danzig (Gdańsk) - in period 1364 - 1430 over 11.000 immigrants gained the civic rights in this city, they came from 1129 different villages or smaller towns. In year 1399 the biggest group of immigrants (733 - over 25%) came to Gdańsk / Danzig from various areas of the Teutonic State. Majority of those 733 - 498 - came to Danzig from areas located not farther than 20 - 30 km from the city. The next largest group came to Danzig in 1399 from Westphalia (286 persons) and Saxony (220 persons). Further group came from Pomerania, Mecklenburg and Schleswig-Holstein (in total 279 persons from these 3 areas). Immigrants from the Kingdom of Poland in 1399 numbered 99 persons (3%). From Silesia - 74 persons (2.5%). From Holland - 69 persons (2%).

==============================================

As a curiosity let's mention, that the city of Cracow - Poland's capital in the Middle Ages - had even up to 50% German-speaking population in late 13th century, after the Mongol invasion. During the Mongol invasions Cracow was heavily devastated and later it was re-settled largely with colonists / immigrants from overpopulated parts of Germany. However, in 16th century the city of Cracow was once again ethnically nearly 100% Polish - vast majority of German colonists became Polonized during those three centuries from 1250 to 1550.

As I wrote before - nobility & urban population (especially urban elites) get assimilated much easier than peasants.

But peasants were the vast majority of population of all European territories in the Middle Ages.
There are words which carry the presage of defeat. Defence is such a word. What is the result of an even victorious defence? The next attempt of imposing it to that weaker, defender. The attacker, despite temporary setback, feels the master of situation.

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Re: Stettin and Pomerania in the 12th century

Post by Peter K » 08 Dec 2012 19:47

Adam Carr wrote:although the Dukes of Pomerania were subjects of the (German) Holy Roman Empire from 1181.
And then since 1185 they were subjects of the (Danish) Kingdom of Denmark.

Not even mentioning that there was a difference between paying homage to the Holy Roman Emperor and paying homage to the King of Germany - even if both titles belonged to one person. All Christian European rulers were in theory obliged to be subjects of the Holy Roman Emperor, while noone was obliged to be subject of the King of Germany, unless his country was forcefully constrained to do so, for example as the result of a war.

Dukes of Pomerania payed homage to Kings of Denmark since 1185 - and they were politically dependent from Denmark, not from Germany or from the HRE (which was already at that time not a single political entity but a much "fictional" unity consisting of several independent states only formally subjected to the Holy Roman Emperor, who usually - but not always - was at the same time King of Germany, one of member-states of the Empire).

The homage payed by Duke of Pomerania to the Emperor in 1181 was symbolic - it was a symbol of Pomerania becoming part of the Christian world. It didn't mean political subjugation to Germany. OTOH, the homage payed by the same Duke of Pomerania to King Canute VI of Denmark in 1185 - after Pomeranian army was defeated in the battle of Kamien - was the real sign of political subjugation - to Denmark, not to "German HRE".

Eric Christiansen in his book "The Northern Crusades" writes about this final stage of the war:

"(...) During this stage of the war sea-borne attacks interwined with arrival of Danish monks, who started to occupy Pomeranian abbeys. Cistercians from Esrum came to Dargun at the Piana (1172) and Kołbacz near Szczecin (1175) and Premonstratensians from Lund to Białoboki (1177) and Grobi.That religious intrusion meant that Slavic dukes had to cooperate with Danish priesthood, which however did not soothingly influence the cruelty of sea-borne invaders. Monks were singing their chorales, and Danish army so completely devastated areas around the mouth of the Oder river, that Wołogoszcz, Uznam, Wolin and Kamien for some time were not suited for habitation. Combined Veleti-Pomeranian fleet tried to regain control over the Polabian coastline, but on 19 May 1184 it totally lost the battle at the Bay of Greifswald, leaving Pomerania and Hither Pomerania without defence. Duke Bogusław of Szczecin tried to regain lost ground in the battle of Kamien in 1185, but forced to retreat by a sudden counterattack he fell from his horse and escaped on foot. This finally discouraged him from further combat; on the next day he started negotiations with the Danish bishop Absalon, and in the evening - completely drunk - he was carried to Absalon's ship. For Duke Bogusław, nothing else remained than to surrender Pomerania to Canute VI and have hope that Canute would allow him to continue to reign over his duchy as Denmark's vassal. (...)"
There are words which carry the presage of defeat. Defence is such a word. What is the result of an even victorious defence? The next attempt of imposing it to that weaker, defender. The attacker, despite temporary setback, feels the master of situation.

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Re: Stettin and Pomerania in the 12th century

Post by michael mills » 09 Dec 2012 02:22

That is why large part of eastern German territories had numerous Slavic-speaking population as long as until late 18th century and early to mid-19th century, when particularly Prussian government started to be actively interested in Germanizing so far non-German elements of the state's population.
Peter K,

You are being a little imprecise here.

The population of the territory between the Elbe and the Oder was fully German in ethno-linguistic identity by the end of the medieval period, except for a few small enclaves of Slavic speech in isolated areas, eg in the Lausitz and the Lüneburg Heath. Of those enclaves, on that of the Lausitz Sorbs has survived to the present day.

Of the territories of the Holy Roman Empire east of the Oder, Pomerania was fully German by the end of the medieval period, except for small pockets of Slavic speech in the extreme east of the Province. East Brandenburg and Lower Silesia were also overwhelmingly German in ethnicity well before the 18th Century. Only Upper Silesia retained a majority of Slavic-speakers, known as Slonzaks, whose language was a dialect midway between Polish and Czech.

The Slonzaks of Upper Silesia had been under the rule of the Bohemian Crown since the 13th Century. They did not acquire a Polish identity until the late 19th Century, under the influence of Polish proests and educators coming from the Posen Province, a major centre of Polish nationalism.
Those who emigrated from the 1970s onward emigrated because of poverty in Poland - exploiting the chance for a better life - rather than because of their supposed adherence to the German ethnicity more than to Polish.

Their chance was all about the fact that they could legitimate themselfes with ancestors who had German citizenship before 1939, which means they could get German citizenship in 1970s much easier than other Poles.
Peter K, the motivation of the Masurians of the former East Prussia for choosing to be German rather than Polish and emigrating to Germany is irrelevant.

What it shows is that ethnic identity is often a matter of personal choice, for whatever reason. It shows that the original Slavic inhabitants of the German territories east of the Oder-Neisse had a choice whether to remain Slavic or become German; some became German very early on, as far back as the 13th Century, some chose to become German only a few decades ago.

But Peter K, none of what you have written negates my essential point, which is that very few of the descendants of the original Slavic population of Pomerania, Eastern Brandenburg and Lower Silesia are living today in those territories, the reason for that being that, having become germanised, they were expelled by the Polish Government from 1945 onward.

Thus, only a small minority of the current Polish population of the German territories annexed by Poland in 1945 consists of descendants of the original Slavic population; the vast majority consists of colonists from elsewhere who have no historical connection with those territories.

That fact gives the lie to the Polish nationalist claim that the Polish annexation of the German eastern territories reporesented the restoration to the Slavic people of ancient Slavic ethnic territories that had been stolen by Germans. It is a falsehood because those territories were not restored to the descendants of the original Slavic inhabitants, since most of those descendants were expelled and replaced by non-indigenous Slavs.

PS: As for East Prussia, the initial German settlers brought in by the Teutonic Knights after their conquest of the territory came from the Netherlands and adjacent parts of western Germany. Those settlers brought their Low German dialect with them, and that dialect became the offficial language of the Monastic state and evnetually of the majority of the population, including the germanised indigenous Baltic inhabitants.

Polish was spoken by settlers from neighbouring Masuria who were brought in by the Teutonic Knights in the sam way as they brought in settlers from Western Germany and the Netherlands. But those settlers were relatively few, and Polish was only ever spoken in East Prussia by a minority of the total population, although it was the major language in certain areas bordering on Poland.

Likewise, Lithuanian was spoken by immigrants from the domains of the Lithuanian Dukes, rebels who had sought sanctuary in the Monastic State, but they were also only a small minority.

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henryk
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Re: Stettin and Pomerania in the 12th century

Post by henryk » 09 Dec 2012 20:06

Michael Mills said:
Thus, only a small minority of the current Polish population of the German territories annexed by Poland in 1945 consists of descendants of the original Slavic population; the vast majority consists of colonists from elsewhere who have no historical connection with those territories.

That fact gives the lie to the Polish nationalist claim that the Polish annexation of the German eastern territories reporesented the restoration to the Slavic people of ancient Slavic ethnic territories that had been stolen by Germans. It is a falsehood because those territories were not restored to the descendants of the original Slavic inhabitants, since most of those descendants were expelled and replaced by non-indigenous Slavs.
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... es#p134032
This shows census data showing the origin of settlers in the "recovered territories":
percentage of population remaining there
Olsztyn: 19%; Gdansk:11%; 9%; Szczecin: 3%; Zielona Góra: 3%; Wroclaw: 6%.

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Re: Stettin and Pomerania in the 12th century

Post by michael mills » 10 Dec 2012 06:29

This shows census data showing the origin of settlers in the "recovered territories":
percentage of population remaining there
Olsztyn: 19%; Gdansk:11%; 9%; Szczecin: 3%; Zielona Góra: 3%; Wroclaw: 6%.
I wrote:
Thus, only a small minority of the current Polish population of the German territories annexed by Poland in 1945 consists of descendants of the original Slavic population; the vast majority consists of colonists from elsewhere who have no historical connection with those territories.
What constitutes a "small minority"?

Olsztyn: 19% = small minority (and most of those moved to Germany as soon as they could, from the 1970s onward)
Gdansk: 11% = small minority
Sczeczin: 3% = tiny minority
Zielona Gora: 3% = tiny minority
Wroclaw: 6% = pretty small minority.

Thus, the figures vindicate what I stated: the great majority of the descendants of the indigenous Slavic and Baltic populations in the former German terriotries east of the Oder-Neisse Line were expelled from 1945 onward, and replaced by a POlish population that had no hisotrical roots in those areas.

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Re: Stettin and Pomerania in the 12th century

Post by Stephan » 16 Jan 2013 09:00

Interesting tread! I myself had read a book by a "heavy" swedish historician Dick Harryson about these parts of the world and the times... So I do understand what Peter K says, referring Christiansen.
Peter K. referring of Polish history at about 1150 are correct.

I have 2 comments.
1. Why did the Danes took the Stettin and some other parts of the slavonian states/tribes, although it was the german states who most vigorously pressed on? Easy. When they slavonic dukes did understood the pressure was too heavy and they must sooner or later give up. And they also realized the long term best would be to be christianized, to "become part of the EU". So they choosed the rule of Danes, as they were more far away and the lest evil. And thus - the shadow of indenpendence would be bigger under a danish rule. Does Harryson tell.
My remark: I wonder, at these times water was a bridge, not a obstacle. So the distance to Denmark core wasnt big problem, and the de facto distance was thus nearer then down to core of "Germany". I myself suspect they dukes had some talks with the three attacking countries, and simply choosed the best package of them.

2. The slavonic states west of Oder did get germanized by germans fairly quickly. Not even 100 years later they were more or less Germany, a core german state!. And yet, we dont hear about any big ethnic purges (ie massive killing of the people). Why?
My guess is: these slavonic states and tribes were in main commercial, city cultures. Ie, their ways werent much different from what the germans had. The biggest differences were religion and language. Occupation and ways of living essentially the same. I would suspect many could some german, as they must have had some lively commerce and interchange with germans too. So, as soon the religion was changed, the rest went quickly. It wasnt probably even necessary with any massive immigration of ethnic germans. It was enough german language and german ways become the high fashion. :)

Dick Harrison doesnt say this clear cut, but I think he does hints it... As he wrote much they were a city civilisation.

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Re: Stettin and Pomerania in the 12th century

Post by mimeyo » 20 Feb 2013 18:48

Peter K wrote:
As a side note / reflection - it is intriguing that Poland didn't take part in the Polabian Crusades of 1147 - 1185 (the only states that did take part, was the Kingdom of Denmark and the German duchies of Saxony and Bavaria, both ruled by duke Henry the Lion). West Pomerania was the area of interest and expansion, and - up to the river Oder - sphere of strong influence of Poland for a long time in the preceeding period. Even in the early 1120s, Poland under Boleslaw Krzywousty organized a campaign against West Pomerania, subordinating large part of this area (up to the river Odra / Oder, including Szczecin) to Poland. However, it became independent again after Boleslaw's death in 1138. He also divided the state among his sons, most of whom then successfully rebelled against the senior duke Wladyslaw, and as the result during the next decades Poland was an area of internal fights for his heritage. I guess this is the reason why Poland as a state - nor any of its duchies - was not interested in taking part in the crusade called in 1147. As the result Denmark and Saxony finally took what Poland fought for since early 11th century. If not the political fragmentation of Poland which occured at that time, Szczecin would probably never be German or Danish.
Yes, even if the Slavs of Pomerania weren't Polish they preferred the protection of the Polish state.

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Re: Stettin and Pomerania in the 12th century

Post by Peter K » 20 Feb 2013 21:11

Another good book about Polabian Slavs (the main area of interest of the book is - quoting the authors, Zofia Kossak and Zygmunt Szatkowski - "History of the collapse of the Grand Duchy of the Obodrites and the Holy Union of the Veleti tribes") is the old Polish book (from 1986) "Troja Północy" ("Troy of the North").

The "Troy" in title is Arkona. :wink:
There are words which carry the presage of defeat. Defence is such a word. What is the result of an even victorious defence? The next attempt of imposing it to that weaker, defender. The attacker, despite temporary setback, feels the master of situation.

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Did Poland have territorial plans against Germany?

Post by Davey Boy » 28 Aug 2013 23:44

[Moved from "Did Poland have territorial plans against Germany?"]
BuddaBell123 wrote:Apparently Poland had territorial plans for Germany (it drew up plans to move it boarder with Germany up to the Oder-Nessie rivers). Now this would make Poland a real threat to Germany if this is true, but is this true. Did Poland plan to through I would guess force to take land from Germany?
Poland wasn't interested in any German land that wasn't part of Poland before the Prussian occupation. In other words, the only land that Poland wanted to take from Germany was the land that was part of the Polish Lithuanian Commonwealth for hundreds of years, and most of that was given to Poland as part of the Versailles treaty.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Rzecz ... ta2nar.png

There were some people in Poland who wanted to see a return to the original Polish borders of the middle ages, but these ambitions weren't taken seriously at any level of government. It's only after WWII that Stalin decided to put this plan into motion, probably to liquidate the threat of Prussia once and for all, and create a bigger buffer zone between Russia and Western Europe.

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Davey Boy
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Re: "Poland had territorial plans for Germany"

Post by Davey Boy » 29 Aug 2013 06:39

BuddaBell123 wrote:Clearly for many years the German-Polish conflict had been going on. As Poland had been given vast amounts of German land at the end of WW2 surely it won't want more as it would only increase this conflict. Apparently Poland wanted to increase its boarder with Germany up to the Oder-Nessie rivers through force most likely. Is this true did Poland have territorial plans against Germany?
You seem to have an obsession with Poland's borders, but you've obviously failed to do any proper research on the topic.

The main thing you need to realize is that Poland is an ancient Central European country which was swallowed up by Germany, Austria-Hungary and Russia during the 18th century, but managed to regain its independence after WWI. Do some reading on the Polish Partitions:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Partitions_of_Poland

When it regained its independence, it was given its old land back from Germany, Austria-Hungary and Russia, which was obviously only fair. Do you agree that this was fair?

At the end of WWII the allies moved Poland's borders to the west, and the Polish people didn't have any say in the matter. However, the borders were redrawn in such a way as to make modern Poland look like the original Polish state of around 990 AD. So in effect, Poland managed to regain all of its former land in the west.

Of course, what this means is that if not for the German invasion of Poland in 1939, the German-Polish border would not have moved west in 1945. In other words, Hitler ended up redrawing the German-Polish border, and losing land for Germany in the process.
Last edited by Davey Boy on 29 Aug 2013 11:38, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Did Poland have territorial plans against Germany?

Post by poldas » 31 Aug 2013 21:52

Good afternoon;
Hello to all of you on this noble forum.
I am Polish, and I am writing from Polish.
I think I'm objective, but the score is up to you.

Merits - Controversy;
Re. Davey Boy;
You can not leave Poland in the eighteenth century. It was RON (Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth).
Then there was also the Austro-Hungarian Empire. These are from the mid-nineteenth century.

Welcome

Davey Boy
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Re: Did Poland have territorial plans against Germany?

Post by Davey Boy » 01 Sep 2013 05:30

^ No idea what you're trying to say there, but if you're implying that the Polish Lithuanian Commonwealth wasn't Poland, then I disagree with you.

The Polish Lithuanian Commonwealth was a legal continuation of the Polish state, in which Poland was the senior partner, and not an occupation like the Prussian, Austro-Hungarian and Russian occupations that followed the partitions of Poland and Lithuania.

As a result, the post-WW1 reinstated Polish state had strong claims to all the land that was part of the Polish Kingdom of the Polish Lithuanian Commonwealth, particularly those areas which were the historic lands of Poland and still had a Polish majority, like Greater Poland and the so called Polish corridor.

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Re: Did Poland have territorial plans against Germany?

Post by Hawker » 01 Sep 2013 23:28

Davey Boy wrote: still had a Polish majority, like Greater Poland and the so called Polish corridor.
Such criterion is a bit diffucult for the Polish interests since Poland (especially cities) was multi-culti already in times of the first Republic of Both Nations, and Prussia did a grat deal of work to perform germanization. I don't think that criterion of who is majority in the area, should be considered when Prussia takes the multi-culti land by force, sends it's own people there and forces local inhabitants to change their culture to German.

I agree with poldas.

Ancient boarders or extension was certainly not in mind of Polish leaders. At least not in Piłsudski's mind, because he was always inspired by the Commonwealth, which looked like that

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Davey Boy
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Re: Did Poland have territorial plans against Germany?

Post by Davey Boy » 02 Sep 2013 01:17

Hawker wrote:Such criterion is a bit diffucult for the Polish interests since Poland (especially cities) was multi-culti already in times of the first Republic of Both Nations, and Prussia did a grat deal of work to perform germanization. I don't think that criterion of who is majority in the area, should be considered when Prussia takes the multi-culti land by force, sends it's own people there and forces local inhabitants to change their culture to German.
Certainly, the Prussians Germanized a lot of Polish regions illegally. But once that was done, these regions changed character and could no longer be recognized as Polish.
I agree with poldas.
I don't really know what poldas is trying to say. If I did I might also agree with him.
Ancient boarders or extension was certainly not in mind of Polish leaders. At least not in Piłsudski's mind, because he was always inspired by the Commonwealth.
Yes, the main point to note here is that Poland and Poles by and large weren't interested in any German land, not even in areas that were once Polish but then Germanized by the Prussians.

poldas
Member
Posts: 11
Joined: 31 Aug 2013 21:07

Re: Did Poland have territorial plans against Germany?

Post by poldas » 02 Sep 2013 03:07

Ad. Davey Boy;

Relationships Poland - Prussia and Germany.
This is not a simple problem;
Prussia is a country until mid-Slavic.
I know it's weird.
Now I will give list of bachelors
Ritterkreuz Des Eisernen Kreuzes;
1 - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Felix_Adamowitsch
2 - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erich_von_dem_Bach
3 - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curt_Badinski
4 - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friedrich_Banach
5 - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hans_Bartkowiak
6 - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alfons_Bialetzki
7 - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wolfgang_vo...lisczinski
8 - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerhard_Czernik
9 - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wilhelm_Czorny
10 - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franz_Danowski
11 - Albert Dubicki (brak linku, odznaczony w sierpniu 1944r.)
12 - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Detlev_Graf...ier-Turawa
13 - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eugen_Garski
14 - Walter Glembotzki (brak linku, odznaczony w lutym 1945r.)
15 - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heinz_Golinski
16 - Josef Grabowski (brak linku, odznaczony w 18 stycznia 1944r.)
17 - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alfred_Grislawski
18 - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fritz_Gromotka
19 - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siegfried_Jamrowski
20 - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franz_Jasiek

Ponadto podam Żyda z certyfikatem aryjskości (ale to jedynie moja hipoteza);
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fritz_Birnbaum

21- August Machowsky - brak linku ( porucznik, odznaczony 30.04.1945r.)
22 - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wilhelm_von_Malachowski
23- Wilhelm Makrocki - brak linku (kapitan, odznaczony 6.10.1940r.)
24- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erich_von_Manstein vel Lewiński
25- Hans Marscholek - brak linku (porucznik, odznaczony 31.04.1944r.)
26- Erich Matuschewitz - brak linku (podoficer, odznaczony 30.08.1944r.)
27- Erich Michalski - brak linku (major, odznaczony 6.02.1944r.)
28- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerhard_Michalski
29- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Klaus_Mietusch
30- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hans_Mikosch
31- Johannes Morawietz - brak linku (porucznik, odznaczony 07.01.1943r.)
32- Willi Morawietz - brak linku (podoficer, odznaczony 05.11.1944r.)

Po drodze jest zatrzęsienie odznaczonych "Młynarzy", czyli Müllerów.
66 osób.

33 - Werner Nadolski - brak linku (porucznik, odznaczony 31.12.1943r.)
34 - Leonhard Nechansky - brak linku (porucznik, odznaczony 20.01.1943r.)
35 - Roman Niedzwitzki - brak linku (podoficer, odznaczony 28.04.1945r.)
36 - Gregor Nowowieski - brak linku (kapitan, odznaczony 28.10.1944r.)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harald_Nugiseks
Tego pana podaję jako ciekawostkę. To Estończyk.

37 - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Olejnik_(pilot)
38 - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georg_Olschewski
39 - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hermann_vo ... ronikowski
40 - Helmut Orlowski - brak linku (major, odznaczony 19.08.1943r.)
41- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ernst_Orzegowski
42 - Oskar Otolski - brak linku (major, odznaczony 30.09.1944r.)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wilhelm_Philipps
Tytułem ciekawostki. To był generał dywizji.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harry_Ph%C3%B6nix
Ciekawe nazwisko i urodzony na Łotwie.

43 - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erich_Pietzonka
44 - Hubert Pilarski - brak linku (podoficer, odznaczony 04.08.1943r.)
45 - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harry_Polewacz
46 - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fritz_Polack
47 - Hans Prominski - brak linku (porucznik, odznaczony 08.08.1944r.)
48 - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Felix_Przedwojewski
49 - Joachim Quassowski - brak linku (kapitan, odznaczony 18.12.1943r.)
50 - Albert Radesinsky - brak linku (podoficer, odznaczony 07.10.1943r.)
51 - Eduard Radowsky - brak linku (oberstleutnant, to chyba major? odznaczony 20.08.1942r.
52 - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georg_Radziej Rodem z Pyskowic.
53 - Edmund Ratajczak - brak linku (podoficer, odznaczony 10.02.1945r.)

54 - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franz_Riedel Urodzony w Cieszynie.

55 - Franz Rogalski - brak linku (podoficer, odznaczony 17.03.1944r.)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helmut_Rosenbaum Czyżby kolejny uratowany dzięki certyfikatowi aryjskości?

56 - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erich_Rudnick
57 - Alfred Rutkowski - brak linku (kapitan, odznaczony 15.04.1944r.)
58 - Karl Sawadzki - brak linku (podoficer, odznaczony 23.02.1943r.)
59 - Otto Sawadzki - brak linku (podoficer, odznaczony 08.09.1941r.)
60 - Otto Sawadzki - brak linku (podoficer, odznaczony 10.09.1944r.)
61 - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rudolf_Smola
62 - Otto Starosta - brak linku (podoficer, odznaczony 08.05.1943r.)
63 - Helmut Strojek - brak linku (podoficer, odznaczony 17.03.1945r.)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ernst_S%C3%BC%C3%9F
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walter_S%C3%BC%C3%9F
Tych panów podaję tytułem ciekawostki. Oglądaliście nazistowski film pt. "Żyd Süß" (Jude Süß) ?
Z takim nazwiskiem to chyba oni lekko nie mieli.
With this name they had slightly

64 - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josef_Swientek
65 - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lothar_Swierzinski
66 - Arnold Szelinski - brak linku (pułkownik, odznaczony 18.11.1941r.)
67 - Joachim Szyskowitz - brak linku (kapitan marynarki wojennej, odznaczony 13.10.1944r.
Poles in the service of Germany.
As you can see - The case is complicated.

Feldmarschal Manstein called earlier Lewinski.

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