The Polish area under Prussian control

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Peter K
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Re: The Polish area under Prussian control

Post by Peter K » 27 Feb 2014 02:27

A primary source describing linguistic situation in Silesia in year 1513 says:

"(...) Zwei Volksstämme, die sich nicht nur nach ihren Wohnsitzen, sondern auch nach ihren Sitten scheiden, bewohnen es; den nach Westen und Süden gelegenen Theil nehmen die Deutschen ein, den Theil nach Osten und Norden zu die Polenö beide trennt als eine ganz sichere Grenze die Oder von der Neißemündung ab, sodaß auch in den Städten diesseits die deutsche, jenseits die polnische Sprach vorherrscht. Man erkennt zwischen beiden Völkern einen starken Gegensatz. (...)"

In English:

"(...) It is inhabited by two nations, distinct from each other not only in terms of territories they occupy, but also in terms of customs; Western and Southern parts are inhabited by Germans, while Eastern and Northern parts are inhabited by Poles, both nations are divided by safe boundary along the Oder River starting from the outlet of the Neisse River in such a way, that also in cities on one side of the river we can hear German speech, while in cities on the other side by contrast we can hear Polish speech. Between these two nations there are strong differences. (...)"

Source:

Barthel Stein, "Descriptio Tocius Silesie et Civitatis Regie Vratislaviensis", published in 1513.

Please note that the city of Wrocław / Breslau was located on both sides of the Oder River.

Indeed, that part of Wrocław which was located on the eastern bank of the River, was called "Polnische Seite".

In fact detailed research shows that also some areas to the west of the Oder River were at that time mostly-Polish speaking.

On previous pages I posted a linguistic map of Silesia in ca. year 1650 (so already 137 years after Barthel Stein's description):

Blue = areas with German-speaking majority and red = areas with Polish-speaking majority (ca. year 1650):

http://postimg.org/image/k4134c499/full/

Image

But at that time some areas to the east of the Oder River - especially in the north (as you can see) - were already Germanized. Regarding situation in the 1500s, it is described by Polish historians (for example: J. Kuczer's book on nobility in Duchy of Glogau in period 1526 - 1740, W. Dziewulski's study on population of Silesia in late 16th and early 17th centuries, A. Kowalska's article on Polish language in Silesia in period 1526 - 1742).

As well as:

T. Ładogórski, "Attempts of researching Polish-German linguistic border in Lower Silesia during the 1500s"
D. Dolański, "Poles and Germans in northern parts of Silesia during the 1500s"

Apart from Poles and Germans, in Silesia lived also Czechs, but their proportion compared to the other two groups was very small (A. Kowalska).

In the map I posted above, territories with Czech-speaking and Moravian-speaking majority in ca. year 1650 are marked with green colour.
There are words which carry the presage of defeat. Defence is such a word. What is the result of an even victorious defence? The next attempt of imposing it to that weaker, defender. The attacker, despite temporary setback, feels the master of situation.

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Re: The Polish area under Prussian control

Post by Peter K » 27 Feb 2014 03:23

Parliament of the Duchy of Glogau used some institutions of Polish noble democracy - including liberum veto, and viritim voting.

On 16.09.1735 MP of the Parliament of this duchy - Starost Franz Carl von Kotulinsky- mentioned:

"gewöhnliches nie poswolam"

Which means:

"customary nie pozwalam"

And "nie pozwalam" is Polish for: "veto" or "liberum veto" ("I do not allow").

============================================

In links below I (Domen) wrote more about the issue of Polish areas which at some point fell under Prussian control:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthrea ... 712&page=2

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=521068

http://historum.com/european-history/67 ... che-5.html

http://historum.com/european-history/59 ... 0-a-7.html
There are words which carry the presage of defeat. Defence is such a word. What is the result of an even victorious defence? The next attempt of imposing it to that weaker, defender. The attacker, despite temporary setback, feels the master of situation.

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henryk
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Re: Gdansk restored to Poland after WW1?

Post by henryk » 27 Feb 2014 21:19

Peter K wrote:
Map below shows location of major Polish tribes in the 8th and the early 9th centuries:
Interesting roll-over of the (...) kashubians into the Polish nazional conzeptum.
Kashubians were originally one of many Polish tribes. In two links below I (Domen) wrote more about this:

http://historum.com/european-history/65 ... stcount=38
http://historum.com/european-history/65 ... stcount=30

Archdeacon Maciej from Płock wrote in year 1339:

"One and the same language prevails both in Pomerania and in Poland, since all people living there speak Polish".

German historian Dr. Lorenz in his book "Geschichte der Kaschuben" on page 150 wrote:

"Übrigens waren Polnisch und Kaschubisch ihrem Klange nach damals wohl noch einander sehr ähnlich."

Which translates (more or less):

"In any case at that time Polish speech and Kashubian speech were very similar to each other."

What criteria do you use to categorize Kashubians as a Polish tribe. Other sources consider them as Pomeranian tribes.
Most authorities consider present day Kashubian as a language separate from Polish. In Canada Polish TV programs use Polish subtitles when Kashubian is spoken. Kashubian and Polish would seem to have evolved into different languages starting from the "Late Common Slavic "(c. 800 — 1000 CE) both originally used.
https://www.princeton.edu/~achaney/tmve ... ]Kashubian or Cassubian (Kashubian: kaszëbsczi jãzëk, pòmòrsczi jãzëk, kaszëbskò-słowińskô mòwa; Polish: język kaszubski) is one of the Lechitic languages, a subgroup of the Slavic languages.

Kashubian is assumed to have evolved from the language spoken by some tribes of Pomeranians called Kashubians, in the region of Pomerania, on the southern coast of the Baltic Sea between the Vistula and Oder rivers.

It is closely related to Slovincian, and both of them are dialects of Pomeranian. Many linguists, including in Poland, consider it a divergent dialect of Polish, although now it is usually recognized as the closest living relative of Polish, being the only other Lechitic language still spoken. The Polish Wikipedia article on Kashubian contains a thorough discussion of this question.

Similarly to Polish, Kashubian includes numerous loanwords from Low German, such as kùńszt (art), and some from German. Other sources of loanwords include the Baltic languages, Russian and Polish. In dialects of Kashubian a schwa occurs.

The first printed documents in Kashubian date from the end of the 16th century. The modern orthography was first proposed in 1879.

In the 2002 census, 53,000 people in Poland declared that they mainly use Kashubian at home. All Kashubian speakers are also fluent in Polish. A number of schools in Poland teach in Kashubian as a lecture language. It is used as an official alternative language for local administration purposes in Gmina Sierakowice and Gmina Parchowo in Pomeranian Voivodeship. Kashubian is also spoken by Kashubians living in Canada.[/quote]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Slavic
the further development of Proto-Slavic into the modern Slavic languages.
1.Pre-Slavic (c. 1500 BCE — 300 CE): A long, stable period of gradual development. The most significant phonological developments during this period involved the prosodic system, e.g. tonal and other register distinctions on syllables.
2.Early Common Slavic or simply Early Slavic (c. 300 — 600 CE): The early, uniform stage of Common Slavic, but also the beginning of a longer period of rapid phonological change. As there are no dialectal distinctions reconstructible from this period or earlier, this is the period for which a single common ancestor (that is, "Proto-Slavic proper") can be reconstructed.
3.Middle Common Slavic (c. 600 — 800 CE): The stage with the earliest identifiable dialectal distinctions. Rapid phonological change continued, although with the massive expansion of the Slavic-speaking area. Although some dialectal variation did exist, most sound changes were still uniform and consistent in their application. By the end of this stage, the vowel and consonant phonemes of the language were largely the same as those still found in the modern languages. For this reason, reconstructed "Proto-Slavic" forms commonly found in scholarly works and etymological dictionaries normally correspond to this period.
4.Late Common Slavic (c. 800 — 1000 CE, although perhaps through c. 1150 CE in Kievan Rus', in the far northeast): The last stage in which the whole Slavic-speaking area still functioned as a single language, with sound changes normally propagating throughout the entire area, although often with significant dialectal variation in the details.

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Re: The Polish area under Prussian control

Post by Sid Guttridge » 28 Feb 2014 11:14

Hi Henryk,

However one looks at it, the Kashube language is Slavonic, like Polish, rather than German.

Cheers,

Sid

Peter K
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Re: The Polish area under Prussian control

Post by Peter K » 31 Jan 2015 17:12

Polish national anthem - "Mazurek Dąbrowskiego" - was written by an ethnic Kashubian (Pomeranian), Józef Wybicki:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J%C3%B3zef_Wybicki
Józef Rufin Wybicki (29 September 1747 – 19 March 1822) was a Polish jurist, poet, political and military activist. He is best remembered as the author of Mazurek Dąbrowskiego (Dąbrowski's Mazurka), which in 1927 was adopted as the Polish national anthem.

Wybicki was born in Będomin, in the region of Pomerania in the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth.[1] His family was Pomeranian nobility.[2]
Będomin = Bãdomino in Kashubian dialect of Polish.
Interesting roll-over of the (...) kashubians into the Polish nazional conzeptum.
They rolled over themselves into it, by sending delegates to the Versailles in 1919 and demanding incorportaion to Poland. Antoni Abraham (1869 - 1923) and Tomasz Rogala (1860 - 1951) were Kashubian delegates to the Paris Peace Conference of 1919:

http://www.inyourpocket.com/poland/gdyn ... use_20192v

http://www.sni.edu.pl/proj/adam/abraham/anteks_gb.htm

http://translate.google.com/translate?s ... ni_Abraham
Born in 1869 in Zdrada near the town of Puck 10km north of Gdynia, Antoni Abraham is honoured locally as the Kashubian activist who campaigned for the incorporation of Kashubia into the newly formed Polish state after WWI.

His belief in the need for a strong Kashubian identity seems to have been influenced by a teacher, the priest Teofil Bączkowski, who helped develop the young Abraham’s national consciousness in the late 19th century when Kashubia was part of the Prussian partition of Poland.

From 1911-1913 he led the People’s Society in Reda which was one of the most active societies in the Pomerania region. Extremely active, Abraham would organise rallies, often outside of church following mass, where he attacked the Prussian rulers and encouraged the local people to read Gazeta Gdanska where he wrote a regular column. He was well-known for his phrase ‘The alphabet, the book, the newspaper are a virtue of the Polish home’ (“elementarz, książka, gazeta to polskiego domu zaleta”) and was a proponent of literature dedicated to regional themes.

In 1891 Abraham became one of the founding members of the People’s Society ‘Unity’ (Towarzystwo Ludowe „Jedność”) in Gdansk Oliwa as well as similar societies in Puck, Kielno, Wejherowo, Reda, Chylonia and Gdynia.

Abraham had married Matylda Paszke from Orle in 1890 and they had 2 sons and 3 daughters. Abraham suffered the tragedy of seeing one of his daughters die in an accident as a child and further tragedy awaited when Abraham, his two sons and his son-in-law were conscripted into the German army in 1915. All three younger men were to die on the front while Abraham himself was seriously wounded.

Following the war, Abraham became a member of the Committee of the General People’s Council in Royal Prussia, Warmia and Mazuria and travelled to Paris illegally to support the Polish delegation of Roman Dmowski at the Paris Peace Conference of 1919 where the map of Europe was re-drawn following the German defeat in WWI. This visible support by the Kashubian representatives for the Polish delegation and their demands to be incorporated into the new Polish state were important in large parts of Kashubia becoming Polish territory while Danzig/Gdansk became an independent free state.

He returned to Poland from France with General Haller’s Blue Army, presenting Haller with a traditional Kashubian snuff pouch at the ‘Marriage to the Sea’ ceremony in February 1920 when Poland regained access to the Baltic. Abraham moved into the house at ul. Starowiejska later that year and was awarded the Order of Polonia Restituta by President Stanisław Wojciechowski in 1922. Wojciechowski described Abraham as ‘a prince of the Kashubian people, whose enduring belief in his faith and language is the reason that the Polish flag now flies over the Baltic Sea.’

Abraham was to become seriously ill with cancer just a few weeks later and although money was provided for his treatment by the president of Poland, the ‘King of the Kashubians’ died on June 23, 1923 at his home in Gdynia. His funeral was attended by thousands of people and the whistles of locomotives and horns of ships were blown as the cortège passed through Gdynia. Abraham was buried at the cemetery in Oksywie at his request and on his grave you can find the inscription “Here is buried Antoni Abraham - zealous defender of faith and Polishness in Kashubia”. A statue was raised in his honour in the centre of Gdynia in 2001.
Tomasz Rogala:

http://translate.google.com/translate?s ... asz_Rogala

Among other important Kashubian activists was for example doctor Aleksander Majkowski:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aleksander_Majkowski
(...) In 1920, he sat on the board of the commission responsible for establishing the Polish-German borders and in Rada Pomorska - Towarzystwo Ochrony Polskości na Pomorzu (Pomeranian Council - Society for the Protection of Polish Interests in Pomerania) as its head. For the next two years, he resided in Grudziądz, though he traveled extensively throughout Poland. In Grudziądz, he met his future wife, Aleksandra Starzyńska. Also there, he organized the Exhibition of Fine Arts, having Pomeranian artists in mind, which was officially opened on June 7, 1921, by the head of Poland, Marshall Józef Piłsudski.

In the coming years, Majkowski continued his political and cultural activities aimed at promoting Kashubia and Kashubian culture. He established a drama theater in Toruń, become a leader of Stowarzyszenie Artystów Pomorskich (Society of Pomeranian Artists) based in Grudziądz, and a chief editor of a magazine called "Pomorzanin" ("The Pomeranian") – all this between 1921 and 1923. In addition, during this time he resumed publishing "Gryf", and continued to write, collaborating with various periodicals and radio in Toruń. In "Gryf", he also published the first chapters of his book Żëcé i przigodë Remusa. (...)
And Gerard Labuda is among the most famous of Kashubian historians:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerard_Labuda

List of some of famous Kashubians / Pomeranians - including Józef Wybicki mentioned above, and Donald Tusk:

http://www.spis.kaszubi.pl/index.php?ev ... &menu_id=1

Historically, "Kashubians" was first a tribal and then a regional name / identity (like, for example, "Bavarians").

When talking about ethnic / national identity, Kashubians described themselves as "puolscy ledze" ("Polish people").

Kashubians historically called their own dialect / tongue / language, "puolski" ("Polish"), while Germans called it "Polsch".

According to 2011 census in Poland there were 232,547 people who declared themselves as Kashubians. Of them only 386 (three hundred and eighty six) regarded themselves as Kashubians and Germans. Vast majority - 215,784 - regarded themselves as Kashubians and Poles (of them 214,415 regarded themselves as Poles 1st and Kashubians 2nd, while 1,369 regarded themselves as Kashubians 1st and Poles 2nd). Finally 16,377 claimed that they were Kashubians alone.

Majority of Kashubians have already forgotten the local dialect of their ancestors, and speak standard Polish. But 97,714 (42% of those who declared Kashubian ethnicity) still spoke Kashubian at home, according to 2011 census. In addition to that, another group of 10,426 people declared that they spoke Kashubian in 2011, but they did not declare any kind of Kashubian ethnic identification (be it Polish-Kashubian, Kashubian alone, etc.) - they declared their ethnicity as Polish alone. The real number of Kashubians or people of Kashubian descent is higher than the number of people who declare Kashubian ethnicity (232,547), many of such Kashubians simply do not declare Kashubian ethnicity, but Polish alone (and 10,426 of them did not declare Kashubian ethnicity even though they still spoke Kashubian). The total number of Kashubians/Pomeranians and people of Kashubian/Pomeranian descent living in Poland today is estimated as around 500,000.

In total there were 108,140 Kashubian-speakers in Poland according to 2011 census. Of them 3,802 spoke only Kashubian, while 104,319 were bilinguals who spoke Kashubian and standard Polish. And 19 (nineteen) were bilinguals who spoke Kashubian and German.
There are words which carry the presage of defeat. Defence is such a word. What is the result of an even victorious defence? The next attempt of imposing it to that weaker, defender. The attacker, despite temporary setback, feels the master of situation.

history1
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Re: The Polish area under Prussian control

Post by history1 » 31 Jan 2015 20:22

Peter K wrote:{...] Będomin = Bãdomino in Kashubian dialect of Polish.

[...]

List of some of famous Kashubians / Pomeranians - including Józef Wybicki mentioned above, and Donald Tusk:

http://www.spis.kaszubi.pl/index.php?ev ... &menu_id=1

Historically, "Kashubians" was first a tribal and then a regional name / identity (like, for example, "Bavarians").

When talking about ethnic / national identity, Kashubians described themselves as "puolscy ledze" ("Polish people").
Kashubians historically called their own dialect / tongue / language, "puolski" ("Polish"), while Germans called it "Polsch".
[....].
Lots of claims, Peter, would like to know your source.
Kashubian is NOT a polish dialect nor do Kashubians consider themself "to be a Pole".
As someone with kashubian relatives I guess I can consider that. If I would tell my m-i-l that she´s a Pole and speaks a polish dialect I would get a ban on enter her house!
Even in your link you can read in Kashubian "Jem Kaszëbą" = I´m a Kashubian.
"Kashubians / Pomeranians " are not the same, IMHO. A Kashubian belongs to a slawic language speaking minority in Poland, likely in the Pomeranian wojwodship. But a Pole living in this area is also a Pomeranian but not a Kashubian.
Bavarians are leaving in German state of Bavaria, they are not of any minority group and their language is German, they are using only letters from the German alphabet.But the Kashubian and the Polish alphabet is quite different.
I also wonder about the last information "Kashubians historically called their own dialect / tongue / language, "puolski" ("Polish"), while Germans called it "Polsch". Which century describes this information? The term "Polsch" is not German as we use it nowadays, even when talking about Polish it´s "polnisch". And I doubt that a Kashub as traditional and proud they are would consider themself Polish.
Fact is that the last generations don´t use Kashubian regular but far more Polish, but they are going to teach this language now in schools again and it´s much appreciated, AFAIK.
And there´s still a weekly Kashubian newspaper.

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henryk
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Re: The Polish area under Prussian control

Post by henryk » 01 Feb 2015 20:29

2)
history1 wrote: "Kashubians / Pomeranians " are not the same, IMHO. A Kashubian belongs to a slawic language speaking minority in Poland, likely in the Pomeranian wojwodship. But a Pole living in this area is also a Pomeranian but not a Kashubian.
You are confusing two meanings of Pomeranians:
1) present day residents of Pomerania
2) the ancient tribes of Pomerania
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pomeranian ... [quote]The Pomeranians (German: Pomoranen; Kashubian: Pòmòrzónie; Polish: Pomorzanie) were a group of West Slavic tribes who lived along the shore of the Baltic Sea between the mouths of the Oder and Vistula Rivers (the latter Farther Pomerania and Pomerelia). They spoke the Pomeranian language belonging to the Lechitic branch of the West Slavic language family.

The name Pomerania comes from Slavic po more, which means Land at the Sea.[1]

The Pomeranian tribes formed after the 6th century, when as a result of the Slavic migration, groups of Slavs populated the area, parts of which were formerly inhabited for some time by Germanic tribes, such as the Goths and the Rugians etc.[citation needed]

From the late 10th century, the Piast dukes of Poland tried to incorporate the Pomeranians into their realm and they succeeded several times. The Pomeranians were nevertheless always able to regain their independence. In the course of the 12th century, the non-Christian Pomeranians faced continuous pressure from their expanding Christian neighbours Denmark, Poland, and the Saxon dukes of the Holy Roman Empire. In 1121 they were again subdued by the Polish duke Bolesław III Wrymouth, who had Pomerania Christianized by the German missionary Otto of Bamberg.

At the same time the Pomeranian Prince Wartislaw I conquered the former Lutici lands west of the Oder. After his successors from the House of Griffins were defeated by the Saxons at the 1164 Battle of Verchen, they accepted the overlordship of Duke Henry the Lion. The Pomeranian lands were eventually divided, with the Western parts entering the Holy Roman Empire as the Duchy of Pomerania in 1181, and the Eastern part consisting of Pomerelia under the Samborides came under the influence of Poland and, from 1309 onwards, the Teutonic Order.

After the Germanization of Pomerania resulting from the medieval Ostsiedlung, many Pomeranians were slowly and gradually assimilated and discontinued the use of their Slavic language and culture. The direct descendants of Pomeranians include:
Kashubians, who speak the Kashubian language
Slovincians
Kociewiacy
Borowiacy
[/quote]
The daughter of a first cousin of mine is married to a Kashubian. I had dinner with them and his parents. They made it clear that they were Kashubians.

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Re: The Polish area under Prussian control

Post by history1 » 01 Feb 2015 21:02

Thanks, Henryk, it´s never to late to learn something new ;-)

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Re: The Polish area under Prussian control

Post by Peter K » 03 Feb 2015 18:26

Hi History1,
Lots of claims, Peter, would like to know your source.
This can be found in many sources - for example German Slavist, Friedrich Lorentz (1870 - 1937), wrote that Kashubians called themselves "puolscy ledze" ("Polish people") and their language was "puolski", Germans called it "Polsch". Also Polish ethnographer and historian Alfons Parczewski (1849 - 1933) noted that Catholic Kashubians called themselves "Polochy". Term "Kaschube" was often considered pejorative.

German censuses during the 19th century counted Kashubians as Poles. That only changed in the census of 1890.

Most of 19th century maps also count Kashubians as Poles - for example this map from 1847 counts them as "Polaken / Polen / Lechen":

Image
"Kashubians historically called their own dialect / tongue / language, "puolski" ("Polish"), while Germans called it "Polsch". Which century describes this information? The term "Polsch" is not German as we use it nowadays, even when talking about Polish it´s "polnisch".
The 19th century and the early 20th century, given that this info comes from scholars who lived at that time (see above).
And I doubt that a Kashub as traditional and proud they are would consider themself Polish.
Kashubians lived in Poland for centuries, therefore they became Polonized and considered themselves to be Polish.

Kashubians are a regional group of Poles, just like for example Westphalians are a regional group of Germans, etc.

Also - as above - term "Kaschube" was pejorative back in the 19th century, and was often used as a synonym for "peasant".
As someone with kashubian relatives I guess I can consider that.
Are your relatives Kashubian or German with Kashubian ancestry (Germanized)? Are they Lutheran (or with Lutheran ancestry)?
nor do Kashubians consider themself "to be a Pole".
Well, the census of 2011 shows something opposite to what you claim above.

Historically Catholic Kashubians who lived in Polish lands did consider themselves to be Poles.

Lutheran Kashubians had a less developed national consciousness in this respect.
Kashubian is NOT a polish dialect
It is either a Polish dialect or a Lechitic language most closely related to Polish and to Dravano-Polabian (Dravano-Polabian is now extinct, but it is preserved in such publications as for example 1907 "Die Sprachreste Der Dravano-Polaben Im Hannoverschen" by Paul Rost).

Kashubian is no more distinct from Standard Polish than Bavarian is from Standard German. If we count Kashubian as a distinct language, then among languages most closely related to Polish there will be: 1st Kashubian, 2nd Dravano-Polabian, 3rd Lower Sorbian.
Bavarians are leaving in German state of Bavaria, they are not of any minority group and their language is German
Bavarian dialect is much different from Standard German. It is very hard to understand Bavarians when they speak it.
they are using only letters from the German alphabet. But the Kashubian and the Polish alphabet is quite different.
What do you mean? We are all using the same alphabet - Latin alphabet, also known as Roman alphabet. Kashubian "variant" of Latin alphabet is similar to Polish, but is very young - it was created between 1850 and 1919 by Florian Ceynowa and Friedrich Lorentz.

Polish variant is many centuries old, by comparison.
There are words which carry the presage of defeat. Defence is such a word. What is the result of an even victorious defence? The next attempt of imposing it to that weaker, defender. The attacker, despite temporary setback, feels the master of situation.

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Re: The Polish area under Prussian control

Post by Peter K » 03 Feb 2015 19:02

And something more - several excerpts about Kashubians from Franz Tetzner (1836 - 1919):

1. Diese Slawen sind vielmehr von Süden zugewanderte katholische Polacken. Im Norden, am Meere hingegen, ist ein schmaler Streifen evangelischer Kaschuben erhalten geblieben

2. Die Zahl der Slawen betrug in Stolp und Lauenburg 1861: 1025, von denen auf Stolp nur 24 kommen. Freilich haben sich da nur die katholischen Polacken zum Slawentum bekannt, die evangelischen Kaschuben bezeichneten sich als deutsch.

3. die echten Kaschuben und nennen ihre nächsten katholischen Verwandten in Pommerellen und dem pommerschen Grenzgebiet: Polacken oder Katholische.

4. Pfennig macht keinen Unterschied zwischen Hochpolnisch und Polackisch, das damals in Gegenden gesprochen wurde, die heute zu Preussen gehören, und dem wendischen und kaschubischen Dialekt in Hinterpommern.

5. die katholischen Slawen im Bütower Kreise und in Westpreussen bezeichnen wir als Polacken, wie sie ja auch in der That das Recht verloren haben, sieh Kaschuben zu nennen. Sie sind im Laufe der Zeit dermassen polemisiert, dass sie sich von echten Polen kaum unterscheiden.

6. Im Lauenburger Kreise nennt man die pommerellischen Slawen nur Polacken oder Katholiken, die alten pommerschen Slawen aber Kaschuben.

7. Aber mit den letzten kaschubischen Resten mischen sich bereits schwache polackische Anfänge. Im Verkehr untereinander sprechen die Czarnowsker selten kaschubisch.

8. In Mickrow, 1491 zuerst erwähnt, wurde 1750 abwechselnd einen Sonntag polnisch, den anderen deutsch gepredigt. Wie wenig Kaschuben vorhanden waren, bezeugt ein Vorkommnis aus dem Jahre 1788. Nossins Pastor Alexius hält bei Antritt des Predigers Seebald die Ein- führungs-Rede, darneben auch „eine polnische um der Koseschen Leute willen". Das war anscheinend die letzte polnische Predigt. Jetzt sind etwa 100 polnische Katholiken eingewandert; sie werden Polacken genannt, hören aber diese Bezeichnung nicht gern.

9. Pfennig berichtet 100 Jahre später fälschlich von zwei Herzogtümern „Kassuben, wo Neustettin, Regenwalde und Polzin" und „Wenden, wo Rügenwalde Haven und Stolpe", die u. a. nebst den Herrschaften Lauenburg und Bütow zu Hinterpommern gehören; „polnisch spricht man" an einigen Orten in Hinterpommern, sonderlich in stolpischen und in den Herrschaften Lauenburg und Bütow.

10. Aber mit dem allmählichen Aussterben der pommerschen Easchuben übertrug man den Namen ["Kaschuben"] mit auf die 150000 Slawen in Pommerellen, die einst zum Ordens- lande und dann zu Polen gekommen waren und durch ihren räumlichen Zusammenhang immer mehr und mehr polnisch wurden.

More from Tetzner - contrasting Lutheran Kashubians (who did not call themselves Poles) with Catholic Kashubians (who did):

11. (...) aber nicht in Wierschutzin, wo das Polackische herrscht, das stark abweicht

===========================================

Otto Knoop (1853 - 1931) wrote that Catholic Kashubians from Bütow identified as Polacken, while Protestant ones from Stolp not:

1. Da heisst es S. V: Wir in Hinterpommern nennen Kassuben nur die evangelischen Bewohner slawischer Abstammung in den Kreisen Stolp und Lauenburg; die katholischen Slawen im Bütower Kreise und in Westpreussen bezeichnen wir als Polacken, wie sie ja auch in der That das Recht verloren haben, sieh Kaschuben zu nennen. Sie sind im Laufe der Zeit dermassen polonisiert, dass sie sich von echten Polen kaum unterscheiden.

===========================================

And another source confirming that they called themselves "Polish people" ("puolscy ledze" / "polskji ledze"):

An excerpt from Richard Breyer "Die kaschubische Bewegung vor dem ersten Weltkrieg", Marburg 1963:

http://www.studienstelleog.de/download/GZ.pdf

1. Für das sprachliche Selbstverständnis der Kaschuben ist wichtig, daß sie zwar das Gefühl haben, etwas anderes zu sein als die Polen, daß sie sich aber doch erst sehr spät dazu entschlossen, sich selbst Kaschuben zu nennen. Der Kaschube empfand diesen Ausdruck noch gegen Ende des vorigen Jahrhunderts als unangenehm, weil dis Wort „Kaschube" im Danziger Sprachgebiet lange Zeit im verächtlichen Sinne für Bauer verwendet wurde. Dieser Diskriminierung wichen die Kaschuben dadurch aus, daß sie sich am liebsten „polskji ledze“ nannten, wobei freilich „polskji" nicht mit „polnisch“ im üblichen Sinne gleichgesetzt werden darf. Umgekehrt galt „dei Pölsche“ in der plattdeutschen Mundart des nördlichen Westpreußen für die Katholiken. Dabei bleibt ferner zu berücksichtigen, daß die Bedeutung des Namens Kaschuben nicht geklärt ist. Die heutigen Kaschuben wurden bis ins 14. Jahrhundert hinein in den Urkunden Pomorani genannt, Cassubia hieß lediglich das Land um Belgard an der Persante, um im 15. und 16. Jahrhundert auch auf Land und Bevölkerung der heutigen Kaschubei überzugehen.

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You might also want to check this 2009 book about Kashubians:

Image
There are words which carry the presage of defeat. Defence is such a word. What is the result of an even victorious defence? The next attempt of imposing it to that weaker, defender. The attacker, despite temporary setback, feels the master of situation.

Peter K
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Re: The Polish area under Prussian control

Post by Peter K » 03 Feb 2015 19:32

Medieval sources also called inhabitants of the area of Lębork (Lauenburg in Pommern) - "Polensche leute" ("Polish people"):

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/s ... clnk&gl=pl

http://www.studienstelleog.de/download/HG1.pdf

(...) Dr. Lorentz mag alle Danziger Archive nach imaginären einheimischen Kaszuben durchstöbern lassen, das Ergebnis wird gleich Null sein; wohl aber lesen wir in Handfesten Ausdrücke wie: Dutsche oder Polene (1341, Lauenburg), Gerichtsbarkeit über die polnischen Einwohner (1356, Pasitz und Rosenberg), unser polensche Leute (1438, Roslasin). Der ostpommersche Adel hatte in Bütow und Lauenburg „polenisches“ Ritterrecht, die „polenschen“ Dörfer leisteten ihre polnischen Dienste usw. R. Cramer, den man gerade wegen seines Pseudokaszubismus[11] in den Mitteilungen so überschwenglich gepriesen hat, erwähnt diesen tiefgehenden kulturellen Einfluß des Polentums zur Ordenszeit mit keiner Silbe, das phantastische „Cassubentum“ - ein Anachronismus - macht die Lektüre seines Werkes geradezu ungenießbar. (...)
There are words which carry the presage of defeat. Defence is such a word. What is the result of an even victorious defence? The next attempt of imposing it to that weaker, defender. The attacker, despite temporary setback, feels the master of situation.

Peter K
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Elbe Slavs fleeing eastward from German expansion to avoid ethnic purges?

Post by Peter K » 15 Mar 2016 16:56

Stephan wrote:2. The slavonic states west of Oder did get germanized by germans fairly quickly. Not even 100 years later they were more or less Germany, a core german state!. And yet, we dont hear about any big ethnic purges (ie massive killing of the people). Why?
Quite likely Slavs from west of the Oder avoided getting killed thanks to emigrating (or rather fleeing) eastward, to Poland and Belarus.

Check my new thread about this (it seems that Poland's ancestral roots are in areas West of the Oder, between the Elbe and the Oder):

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 8&t=221184

This theory seems to have received much more attention and more support from Belarusian scholars than from Polish scholars, though.
There are words which carry the presage of defeat. Defence is such a word. What is the result of an even victorious defence? The next attempt of imposing it to that weaker, defender. The attacker, despite temporary setback, feels the master of situation.

Jan-Hendrik
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Re: The Polish area under Prussian control

Post by Jan-Hendrik » 23 Mar 2016 09:35

Quite likely Slavs from west of the Oder avoided getting killed thanks to emigrating (or rather fleeing) eastward, to Poland and Belarus.
What comes next? The myth of a 'Slavokaust' between Oder und Elbe? :roll:

Sorrowly your Kaschuben don't want to be called 'Poles'...if their language should be so close to polish, why I have more problems to understand them as when I talk with people from Kielce,Limanowa etc.?

Jan-Hendrik

Peter K
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Re: The Polish area under Prussian control

Post by Peter K » 23 Mar 2016 15:24

Jan-Hendrik wrote:Sorrowly your Kaschuben don't want to be called 'Poles'...
In 2002 only 5,062 out of 566,737 Kashubians in Poland declared themselves as Non-Poles - so just 0,9% of the total.

The overwhelming majority of 99,1% of Kashubians wanted to be called 'Poles'.

Here 2005 data on number of Kashubians, in German (pages 8-9): http://instytutkaszubski.republika.pl/p ... miecki.pdf

And 5,062 is how many of them declared a Non-Polish identity in the census of 2002. In the next census of 2011, which allowed double ethnic identifications (you could describe yourself as a person of 2 different ethnic groups) slightly more - 16,763 - Kashubians declared a Non-Polish identity. Another group of 215,784 Kashubians declared in 2011 that they were both Poles and Kashubians (since the census form allowed this) - of them 214,415 regarded themselves as Poles 1st + Kashubians 2nd and 1,369 regarded themselves as Kashubians 1st + Poles 2nd.

By comparison the percent of Bavarians who don't want to be called 'Germans' has been much higher:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bavaria_Party#History

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bavarian_nationalism

I'm part-Kashubian too, my maternal grandmother's father's ancestors were Kashubians with family roots from Glisno.

Most of my ancestry is from Wielkopolska (Greater Poland), then from Prusy Królewskie (Royal Prussia).

In the census of 2002 I declared myself as Polish. And in the census of 2011 - taking advantage of the fact that it allowed people to declare more than one ethnic or ethnographic identity - I declared myself as Polak and Wielkopolanin (Greater Pole in English or "Posener" in German). I wasn't alone :D - 1514 other people also declared themselves as Wielkopolans in 2011, including 380 as just Wielkopolans alone, 1109 as both Poles and Wielkopolans, and finally 26 declared themselves as Wielkopolans and something else (for example, Wielkopolanin-Niemiec).
Jan-Hendrik wrote:What comes next? The myth of a 'Slavokaust' between Oder und Elbe?
Well, rather not a 'Slavokaust', but some authors who claim that the death toll of the 'Northern Crusades' was indeed heavy. For example Karlheinz Deschner in "Kriminalgeschichte des Christentums" claimed that 2 million Pagan Slavs died as the result of those Christian, German crusades. Check also Bernhard Brügger's "Feudale Expansion und Migration am Beispiel des mittelalterlichen Mecklenburg-Vorpommern":

http://www.feudalismus.de/magister.htm

if their language should be so close to polish, why I have more problems to understand them
Jan-Hendrik wrote:In Germany you have a lot of dialects which are also hard to understand for a person speaking just Standard Hochdeutsch.
BTW - historian Gerard Labuda (1916-2010) was a native Kashubian speaker, but he also spoke a dozen or so other languages (!).

Here a short documentary about Gerard Labuda in Polish (he was a professor at the Adam Mickiewicz University in Poznan):

Last edited by Peter K on 23 Mar 2016 19:08, edited 1 time in total.
There are words which carry the presage of defeat. Defence is such a word. What is the result of an even victorious defence? The next attempt of imposing it to that weaker, defender. The attacker, despite temporary setback, feels the master of situation.

Jan-Hendrik
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Re: The Polish area under Prussian control

Post by Jan-Hendrik » 23 Mar 2016 17:04

Deschner is a good one, but he has a hand to exaggarete much.

Jan-Hendrik

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