The Polish area under Prussian control

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Re: Exactly how many ethnic Germans lived outside of (Germany + Austria) in 1937 in comparison to right now (2016)?

Post by Peter K » 30 Apr 2016 23:38

In period 950-1200s Poland (which at that time had borders similar to modern borders) was ethnically very homogeneous.

Large-scale immigration of Germans, Jews and other ethnic groups started only later on, after year 1200 AD.

Also since the 1300s Poland expanded eastward, which incorporated many East Slavs (Ruthenians) into the Polish kingdom.

In the 1300s Poland also lost lands in the west and the north, where largest numbers of Germans had settled.

==========================

Before the 13th century, the number of ethnically Non-West Slavic foreigners in Poland was very small.

See e.g. B. Zientara, "Foreigners in Poland in the 10th-15th centuries":

http://rcin.org.pl/Content/13947/WA303_ ... H_01_o.pdf

It was also in the 13th and in the 14th centuries when ethnic conflicts and xenophobia first intensified.

When it comes to Cracow:

Cracow is one of these 47 (or more) Polish cities which are 1000+ years old.

See A. Buko "The Archaeology of Early Medieval Poland", Chapter 10, "Towns still under investigation":

http://brego-weard.com/lib/ns/The_Archa ... Discov.pdf

Here a 2003 reconstruction of Early Cracow (excavations continued until 2012, so not everything is shown here):



Like the rest of Poland, Cracow was ethnically homogeneous until the 13th century.

Germans started to migrate to Cracow in the 2nd half of the 13th century, following the Mongol Invasion of Poland and the charter of Cracow on Magdeburg Law. It is estimated that at the peak of their presence (perhaps that was in the early 14th century) Germans were ca. 1/3 of the total population of Cracow. By the mid-15th century probably most of Germans in Cracow were already Polonized.

By the 16th century there were no more Germans in Cracow, i.e. they had assimilated into the Polish community.

As for Jewish community in Cracow - first info about a Jewish district ("vicus Judeorum") is from the 14th century.

Medieval Jews were not integrating easily with gentiles, religious and cultural differences were just too significant.

There was not just one, but many waves of Jewish immigration to Cracow throughout history, so the number of Jews was increasing not only due to natural growth. Jews coming to Cracow were refugees fleeing from Anti-Jewish pogroms in other countries.

The last of such groups of Jewish refugees migrated to Cracow in 1670-1671, they escaped to Cracow from Vienna.
There are words which carry the presage of defeat. Defence is such a word. What is the result of an even victorious defence? The next attempt of imposing it to that weaker, defender. The attacker, despite temporary setback, feels the master of situation.

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Re: Exactly how many ethnic Germans lived outside of (Germany + Austria) in 1937 in comparison to right now (2016)?

Post by Peter K » 01 May 2016 00:47

Sheldrake wrote:It does not matter if I see myself as an Englishman,one of my neighbor sees himself as an Irish Nationalist in a foreign country. Others, born in the UK call themselves British rather than English because "English" implies caucasian. My city is full of proud Londoners who would hesitate to call themselves "English" - though three or four generations hence their family would be as English as the Monarchy...
Well, I agree. BTW - London is now a very multi-ethnic and multi-cultural, in which ethnically English people are in minority.

Just 45% of London's population is White British and this includes also Welsh, Scottish, Northern Irish, etc. - not just English.
Sheldrake wrote:DNA analysis suggests that many people who would describe themselves as "English" were ethnic Germans.
Especially in Norfolk and in Suffolk.

In Britain, percent of Germanic ancestry is highest in East Anglia (Norfolk + Suffolk), as indicated by smallest degree of similarity of inhabitants of this region to Roman-era inhabitants of Eboracum (now York). As you go west and north, percent of Celtic ancestry increases:

Image

Source of the map above is Figure 5a from this 2016 study:

http://www.nature.com/ncomms/2016/16011 ... s10326.pdf

http://www.nature.com/ncomms/2016/16011 ... 326-s1.pdf
There are words which carry the presage of defeat. Defence is such a word. What is the result of an even victorious defence? The next attempt of imposing it to that weaker, defender. The attacker, despite temporary setback, feels the master of situation.

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Re: Exactly how many ethnic Germans lived outside of (Germany + Austria) in 1937 in comparison to right now (2016)?

Post by Sheldrake » 01 May 2016 11:35

Peter K wrote:In period 950-1200s Poland (which at that time had borders similar to modern borders) was ethnically very homogeneous.
Really?

The story of Britian used to be told in the same way how the Anglo Saxon invaders took over Britian. Now the truth is more complicated and there is a genetic gradient -posted elsewhere on this thread.

The Poles migrated from the area of the South Ukraine into an area that was already inhabited by Slavonic tribes the north most being the- Prussians and Pommeraians. What happened to these peoples? Were they exterminated, expelled or absorbed?

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Re: Exactly how many ethnic Germans lived outside of (Germany + Austria) in 1937 in comparison to right now (2016)?

Post by Peter K » 01 May 2016 12:44

Poles and Pomeranians were both parts of Lechitic tribes (also called "Polish" or "North-West Slavic" tribes):

Lechitic tribes: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lechites#Lechitic_group
When Mieszko I inherited the ducal throne from his father he probably ruled over two-thirds of the territory inhabited by eastern Lechite tribes. He united the Lechites east of the Oder (Polans, Masovians, Pomeranians, Vistulans, Silesians) into a single country: Poland. His son, Bolesław the Brave founded the bishoprics at Wrocław, Colberg, and Cracow, and an archbishopric at Gniezno. Bolesław carried out successful wars against Bohemia, Moravia, Kievan Rus and Lusatia, and forced the western Pomeranians to pay Poland a tribute. (...)
Just like for example West Saxons, East Angles, Middle Angles, Jutes, etc. were all parts of "Anglo-Saxon" tribes.

Later various Anglo-Saxon tribes were united into the Kingdom of England. Just like Mieszko united Lechitic tribes.

Here is a map showing Anglo-Saxon realms - as you can see, initially they were far from being politically united:

In year 600 AD there were as many as 10 Anglo-Saxon kingdoms or realms - Wessex (tribe: West Saxons), Sussex (tribe: South Saxons), Kent (tribe: Jutes), Essex (East Saxons), Anglia (East Angles), Mercia (West Angles?), Lindsey, Deira, Bernicia and the Isle of Wight.

Also for example among East Angles there was a division for Norfolk (Northern Folks) and Suffolk (Southern Folks): :)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norfolk

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suffolk

Apart from those ten Anglo-Saxon realms, all other realms in Britain in year 600 AD were Celtic and Romano-Briton kingdoms:

http://www.earlybritishkingdoms.com/map ... gdoms.html

Image

By year 625 Lindsey, Deira and Bernicia were united as Northumbria, so the number of Anglo-Saxon realms declined to eight:

http://www.earlybritishkingdoms.com/map ... gdoms.html

Image

You could argue that Anglo-Saxon England was also diverse, because there were many tribes. But all of them had similar ethnic identity and practically the same origin. This was also the case in Poland were all of Lechitic tribes had similar ethnic identity and origin.

As for Prussians - they were different, but they lived to the east of the Nogat River, outside of Early Poland's borders:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nogat
Prussians.jpg
The Poles migrated from the area of the South Ukraine into an area that was already inhabited by Slavonic tribes
Nope, all of those Lechitic tribes came roughly at the same time, and all of them were also of very similar genetic stock.
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There are words which carry the presage of defeat. Defence is such a word. What is the result of an even victorious defence? The next attempt of imposing it to that weaker, defender. The attacker, despite temporary setback, feels the master of situation.

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Re: Exactly how many ethnic Germans lived outside of (Germany + Austria) in 1937 in comparison to right now (2016)?

Post by MMTB » 01 May 2016 14:38

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Re: Exactly how many ethnic Germans lived outside of (Germany + Austria) in 1937 in comparison to right now (2016)?

Post by Sheldrake » 01 May 2016 16:25

Peter K wrote:
Nope, all of those Lechitic tribes came roughly at the same time, and all of them were also of very similar genetic stock.
That misses the point. Someone was living there before the Poles arrived, typically the maps show "Slavonic tribes" who moved into an area previously regarded as Vandals. The question is whether these historically recorded moves were actual displacement of peoples or a cultural movement, as those that stayed adopted the customs of the new masters.

For example, your map of England shows the West Saxons occupying Wessex. But a history teacher Adrian Targett, from Cheddar, Somerset is a direct descendant of "Cheddar Gorge Man" whose skeleton was found in a cave.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/the-f ... 71542.html
Targett's ancestors have lived for 9,000 years in the Cheddar area. During this time some historian has labelled his family as Stone ages, Bronze aged tribes, the Dobunni or Durotriges ancient Britons, West saxons and then English..

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Re: Exactly how many ethnic Germans lived outside of (Germany + Austria) in 1937 in comparison to right now (2016)?

Post by Peter K » 01 May 2016 22:32

Someone was living there before the Poles arrived, typically the maps show "Slavonic tribes"
Well, Poles are Slavonic too. So the category "Slavonic tribes" includes also Poles.

Poles did not really arrive, but emerged in situ (= "came to being" in the area of Early Medieval Poland).

Those who arrived were Slavonic people (not yet Poles). Later Poles "emerged" from them, as one of Slavonic groups.
The question is whether these historically recorded moves were actual displacement of peoples
In case of Poland, the question is, first of all, whether anyone had actually left there to be displaced by new immigrants.

Archaeological and palynological data suggest a very severe depopulation of this area in the late 4th and 5th centuries AD.

Some people could still be living there during the first half of the 6th century AD, but population density diminished vastly.

However, there still seems to be some genetic continuity from the Early Iron Age Lusatian culture to modern Poles (link):

http://www.forumbiodiversity.com/showth ... ost1220577

The Lusatian culture existed in the Late Bronze Age and Early Iron Age. It did not survive into the Late Iron Age, as it was replaced by cultures often associated with Germanic tribes - such as Przeworsk culture (associated with Vandals) and Wielbark culture (with Goths).

In Polish archaeology there are two "schools" when it comes to theories on the origins of Poles - "allochtonistic" (which says that Slavonic ancestors of Poles arrived here in the 6th-7th centuries AD) and "autochtonistic" (which says that the Lusatian culture were ancestors of Poles). One of representatives of the "autochtonistic school" was prof. Józef Kostrzewski whose theory was that Late Iron Age East Germanic tribes - Vandals and Goths - were never the majority of inhabitants here, but just the ruling elite, who conquered local people of the Lusatian culture (Kostrzewski considered the latter to be Slavonic). But in more recent times "allochtonistic theory" dominates in discourse.

See Józef Kostrzewski's biography: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Józef_Kostrzewski

At its peak the Lusatian culture encompassed Poland, Lusatia (in East Germany), Czech Republic, Slovakia and West Ukraine:

We have one sample of Y-DNA from the westernmost part of that culture - from Halberstadt - and it was haplogroup R1a-Z280 (which is the second most common haplogroup among modern Poles, just after R1a-M458). So there can indeed be some genetic links:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lusatian_culture

Image

The most famous settlement of the Lusatian culture was Biskupin - here a documentary about Biskupin in English:



There are also some genetic links in maternal haplogroups (mtDNA) from Przeworsk & Wielbark cultures to Poles:

http://journals.plos.org/plosone/articl ... ne.0110839

But does genetic continuity indicate also the continuity of ethnic identity and / or the continuity of language ???

Can we claim that Lusatian was Slavonic and that Wielbark & Przeworsk were just ruled by small Germanic elite?

Or does it just mean that Poles are partially descended from East Germanic Vandals and from Germanic Goths.

As for Lusatian - it was not necessarily Slavonic, they could be speakers of some language which is now extinct.

=================================

As for the ancestors of the Lusatian culture - it emerged essentially from the Trzciniec-Komarov culture:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trzciniec_culture

And the Trzciniec-Komarov culture had emerged from one part of the very large Corded Ware culture:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corded_Ware_culture

The Corded Ware culture is one of a few cultures strongly associated with Indo-European expansions.
There are words which carry the presage of defeat. Defence is such a word. What is the result of an even victorious defence? The next attempt of imposing it to that weaker, defender. The attacker, despite temporary setback, feels the master of situation.

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Re: Exactly how many ethnic Germans lived outside of (Germany + Austria) in 1937 in comparison to right now (2016)?

Post by Peter K » 01 May 2016 23:26

Sheldrake wrote:For example, your map of England shows the West Saxons occupying Wessex. But a history teacher Adrian Targett, from Cheddar, Somerset is a direct descendant of "Cheddar Gorge Man" whose skeleton was found in a cave.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/the-f ... 71542.html
Targett's ancestors have lived for 9,000 years in the Cheddar area. During this time some historian has labelled his family as Stone ages, Bronze aged tribes, the Dobunni or Durotriges ancient Britons, West saxons and then English..
Well, and we can't claim based on this fact that the Cheddar Man spoke English language - can we? :lol:

There is a website which seems to be claiming so, but I don't think this theory is commonly accepted:

http://www.proto-english.org

This website claims:

"English was not imported by the Anglo-Saxons", but was spoken in Britain before the Roman invasion...

Welsh people will disagree. They will tell us that Welsh-related Brythonic languages were spoken there:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brittonic_languages
There are words which carry the presage of defeat. Defence is such a word. What is the result of an even victorious defence? The next attempt of imposing it to that weaker, defender. The attacker, despite temporary setback, feels the master of situation.

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Re: Exactly how many ethnic Germans lived outside of (Germany + Austria) in 1937 in comparison to right now (2016)?

Post by Peter K » 04 May 2016 08:09

Sorbs (also known as Lusatians or Wends) are a native Slavonic population living in Germany.

You can see that they are genetically identical as Poles, especially Lesser Poles I would say.

Y-DNA haplogroups of Lechitic populations (total sample size is 1908), "inne" = "others" :

Image
There are words which carry the presage of defeat. Defence is such a word. What is the result of an even victorious defence? The next attempt of imposing it to that weaker, defender. The attacker, despite temporary setback, feels the master of situation.

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Re: Exactly how many ethnic Germans lived outside of (Germany + Austria) in 1937 in comparison to right now (2016)?

Post by Peter K » 23 May 2016 17:40

If we want to define "ethnic Germans" as "genetically Germanic" rather than "speakers of German language", then it turns out, that such people were not very numerous to the east of the Oder-Neisse (i.e. to the east of the current border of Germany) before the World Wars. Genetic map of pre-WW1 Germany shows that most of the population of the eastern provinces was of Slavic (and Baltic in East Prussia) ancestry. Haplogroup R1a-Z283 (red colour) indicates usually Slavic or Baltic (especially in areas mixed with N - yellow colour) descent:

In Silesia most of pre-WW2 inhabitants belonged to typically Slavic haplogroup R1a:

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showth ... ost4428775

This is the case in East Prussia too, where R1a was mixed with haplogroup N (N1c):

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthrea ... t132605394

The map below was made by Robert Gabel in 2013: http://www.robertgabel.de

It is also posted here: https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/ge ... ut/results

Image

Click the attachment to enlarge it:
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There are words which carry the presage of defeat. Defence is such a word. What is the result of an even victorious defence? The next attempt of imposing it to that weaker, defender. The attacker, despite temporary setback, feels the master of situation.

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Re: Exactly how many ethnic Germans lived outside of (Germany + Austria) in 1937 in comparison to right now (2016)?

Post by Nautilus » 20 Aug 2016 19:18

Peter K wrote:If you claim that Jews in Germany were "good ethnic Germans", then you would also need to claim that Hitler exterminated Germans for being Germans, which would be a ridiculous notion (since in fact he exterminated or persecuted ethnic minorities for being Non-Germans).
A significant number (in the hundreds of thousands) of Jews and 1st degree Mischlinge escaped extermination just because they were good ethnic Germans. That is, they were so similar to other Germans (or, in neighbouring countries, to other Dutchmen, Sudeten Germans, Danes or Flemish) that few if any people could tell them apart, and after the war situation worsened, they barely did try to tell them apart.

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Re: Exactly how many ethnic Germans lived outside of (Germany + Austria) in 1937 in comparison to right now (2016)?

Post by Peter K » 20 Aug 2016 19:40

Ethnicity is not about appearance, but of course if some Jew "looked Aryan", then it could help him/her to hide.
There are words which carry the presage of defeat. Defence is such a word. What is the result of an even victorious defence? The next attempt of imposing it to that weaker, defender. The attacker, despite temporary setback, feels the master of situation.

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Re: The Polish area under Prussian control

Post by Nautilus » 26 Aug 2016 10:55

Not just "looked". Fact is, the Reich government and the minor officials responsible to track and register the Jews looked for a specific type of Jew, to fit "ethnic and religious" prejudices of the time.

People 3 generations ago would say "from the Jewish race". But "race" was a different concept in their mind. They could say someone was "from the French race" or other guy was "from the Russian race", even if they were phenotypically very close. As the 1920s violence and legal persecution from the USA against Italians, Chinese, Japanese and other people show, "race" was something closer to "religion plus class and ethnicity" for the common people.

Which means if someone was too close to a German or Dutchman in appearance, habits, language, political option and, if living in the Reich, in many cases supported the NSDAP, there was no incentive to track his or her ethnic background down. They could pass easily for Aryans. (In unfortunate cases, some personal enemy could have ratted them out to the authorities.)

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