The Polish area under Prussian control

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Peter K
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Re: Why Westpreussen is an artificial name & (Ost)Preussen i

Post by Peter K » 15 Nov 2010 01:55

And the fact that those poor Yotvingians no longer have their homeland
They no longer need homeland because they no longer exist as a nation.
because later was incorporated into one form of Poland or another
Yotvingians were annihilated in 13th century by crusades of the Teutonic Order, which wasn't exactly Polish.

They actually lived more to the north than the map posted by SashaWa indicates:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Balti ... c_1200.svg

Last speakers of Yotvingian (Sudovian) language disappeared around 17th / 18th century:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sudovian_language
The current Poland is situated on a previously existing territory that was "liquidated".
Yes but the major difference is that Poles exist, while those nations / tribes do not exist any more.*

And the main reason why Poland regained independence in 1918 while Yotvingans or whoever else didn't, is that Polish nation existed, while Yotvingian didn't. Germanization / Russification wasn't successful enough in this case.

The main reason why Israel was created after WW2, is that nations have the right for having homelands.

If Yotvingian-speakers survived until 1918 (instead of dissapearing completely by 18th century) - who knows...

*Most of them exist as part of the Polish nation, since it was born from several tribes, not just Polanie. But their national identity is now Polish, they don't identify themselves with tribes which ceased to exist 1000 years ago.

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Re: Why Westpreussen is an artificial name & (Ost)Preussen i

Post by Ken S. » 15 Nov 2010 02:26

Domen121 wrote:They no longer need homeland because they no longer exist as a nation.
Same thing happened to Poland, though. You're logic dictates that as of 1795 Poland has had no legitimacy.
Yotvingians were annihilated by crusades of the Teutonic Order, which was not exactly Polish.
What about the Battle of Bransk in 1264?

Ironically Yotvingia was partitioned in 1422, a part of it going to a previous form of Poland. So again Poland consisted of "liquidated" territory and "enslaved" peoples.
They actually lived more to the north than the map posted by SashaWa indicates:
So the map is inaccurate? :roll:

Yes but the major difference is that Poles exist, while those nations / tribes do not exist any more.*

And the main reason why Poland regained independence in 1918 while Yotvingans or whoever else didn't, is that Polish nation existed, while Yotvingian didn't. Germanization / Russification was not succesful enough in this case.

The main reason why Israel was created after WW2, is that nations have right for having homelands.
Actually, I don't see any difference, rather a load of hypocrisy. Poland didn't "regain" anything in 1918. Germany's eastern territories were arbitrarily reconstituted to form a host of minor states that gave rise to a whole host of ethnic strife. Poland never would come into existence again had there been no WWI.

I'm curious had it been possible to record and document the sentiments of the Yotvingians after the partition of their lands what they would have had to say. They must have been quite upset at being enslaved by the Poles.

Also if let's say a million people or so began to foster a Yotbingian conciousness and claiming the right of a homeland and insisting that it be "restored" as of its 1138 or 1422 borders, would you agree that they have every right to this?

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Re: Why Westpreussen is an artificial name & (Ost)Preussen i

Post by SashaWa » 15 Nov 2010 02:51

So still no explanation about mysterious "persecution of Germans" by unknown group of people considering themselves "Slavs"(as opposed to Poles, Russians, Czechs and so on).Instead the usual and expected Poland bashing. I kind of doubt we will ever learn the secret of the mysterious "Slavs" group opressing in unspecified way unspecified Germans in unspecified area.
Actually, I don't see any difference, rather a load of hypocrisy. Poland didn't "regain" anything in 1918.
Of course it regained-the territories taken by Prussia by Partitions and unlawflully annexed into German Empire territories of Duchy of Poznan where Poles were subjected to racist discrimination compared to "apartheid" by western historians.

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Re: Why Westpreussen is an artificial name & (Ost)Preussen i

Post by Ken S. » 15 Nov 2010 03:07

SashaWa wrote:So still no explanation about mysterious "persecution of Germans" by unknown group of people considering themselves "Slavs"(as opposed to Poles, Russians, Czechs and so on).Instead the usual and expected Poland bashing. I kind of doubt we will ever learn the secret of the mysterious "Slavs" group opressing in unspecified way unspecified Germans in unspecified area.

Of course it regained-the territories taken by Prussia by Partitions and unlawflully annexed into German Empire territories of Duchy of Poznan where Poles were subjected to racist discrimination compared to "apartheid" by western historians.
What's pan-Slavism?

What "western" historians?

I need to add that I feel the denial of any form of persecution is morally reprehensible. I've stated a number of times that German-speaking peoples have been persecuted. This persecution is well documented and there is simply now way that it could be referred to as "mysterious" or any other such term.

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Re: Why Westpreussen is an artificial name & (Ost)Preussen i

Post by Peter K » 15 Nov 2010 10:13

They no longer need homeland because they no longer exist as a nation.
Same thing happened to Poland, though.
No, the Polish nation was never destroyed.

Although I forgot that in your strange English language "nation" sometimes means the same as "state".

I was referring to "nation" understood as "people". Yotvingian people were destroyed, Polish or Jewish - not.
Ironically Yotvingia was partitioned in 1422
Yotvingia couldn't be partitioned in 1422, because it ceased to exist 139 years earlier:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prussian_uprisings

Quotation:

"From 1274 to 1283 the Teutonic Knights conquered Skalvians, Nadruvians, and Sudovians/Yotvingians."

Not only conquered, but also "converted by the sword" (= almost completely annihilated or Germanized).
What about the Battle of Bransk in 1264?
Well it's not a mystery that Christian world - including Poland - was supporting the Teutons in their crusades.

But generally speaking Prussia, including Yotvingian territory, was conquered by the Teutonic Order.
Poland never would come into existence again had there been no WWI.
I have no idea why you think so. Poles were very close to winning the Polish-Russian war of 1830 - 1831.

Then during the Spring of Nations in 1848, Polish people also demonstrated their national distinctiveness.

After that the next uprising came in 1863 - 1864, this time without any real chances for Polish victory.

But why assuming that Poles would give up their fight and hard work for independence after that?

Moreover, if not WW1 in 1914, something similar would have started earlier or later. A vast scale military conflict in Europe was inevitable, because of morbid ambitions of world domination of its major military powers. A conflict between Germany, Austro-Hungary and Russia - these three quite hostile to each other militaristic and despotic absolute monarchies, was inevitable. Germany was also angry and eager for revenge because other European powers overtook it during the "Scramble of Africa" and Germany managed to rob only small offals of this continent.

And Poland was just waiting for the inevitable conflict between its three partitioners and oppressors, who previously managed to defeat and erase Poland because all three of them fought against Poland united.

As a certain English poet wrote:

"In the nightmare of the dark –
All the dogs of Europe bark,
And the living nations wait,
Each sequestered in its hate"

This poem pretty much well describes the situation of major European powers in early 1900s.
So the map is inaccurate?
In terms of Polish borders in 1138 it is accurate. In terms of Yotvingian territory - not really.
Last edited by Peter K on 15 Nov 2010 10:55, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: Why Westpreussen is an artificial name & (Ost)Preussen i

Post by SashaWa » 15 Nov 2010 10:47

And as expected-no still no explanation about mysterious "persecution of Germans" by unknown group of people considering themselves "Slavs" by Ken. Shall we take it was just your fantasy?

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Re: Why Westpreussen is an artificial name & (Ost)Preussen i

Post by Peter K » 15 Nov 2010 10:50

I think Russians themselves were pretty much no less oppressed in Tsarist Russia than Germans or anyone else.

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Re: Why Westpreussen is an artificial name & (Ost)Preussen i

Post by SashaWa » 15 Nov 2010 15:28

Domen121 wrote:I think Russians themselves were pretty much no less oppressed in Tsarist Russia than Germans or anyone else.
That's true-there was a opression in Russia, even while it was less racist and more free state than German Empire.

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Re: Why Westpreussen is an artificial name & (Ost)Preussen i

Post by Baltasar » 15 Nov 2010 18:07

That'd depend on the place where they lived. The Kulturkampf was primarily waged in the eastern provinces while I'm not aware that it was commonplace in wealthier regions, eg the Ruhrgebiet, where there was a steady demand for willing workforce.

Aside from that, the discussion in itself is very much pointless. Names are changed over time and get a legitimy by themselves, the city of Istambul might be an apt example. If Germans call the area Westpreussen, they're as right as the Poles who call it whatever they like.

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Re: Why Westpreussen is an artificial name & (Ost)Preussen i

Post by Baltasar » 15 Nov 2010 18:25

Domen121 wrote:
Yes, WWI. The war that the Russians started in 1914.
WWI was started by Austro-Hungarians and Germans, not by Russians:

28.07.1914 - Austro-Hungary declares war on Serbia
29.07.1914 Russian Empire mobilizes
30.07.1914 German Empire mobilizes
31.07.1914 - German ultimatum to France
30.07.1914 France mobilizes
01.08.1914 - Germany declares war on Russia
02.08.1914 - German forces invade Luxemburg
03.08.1914 - Germany declares war on France
03.08.1914 - German forces invade Belgium
04.08.1914 - Great Britain declares war on Germany
05.08.1914 - the USA announces neutrality in the war
08.08.1914 - Montenegro declares war on Germany
23.08.1914 - Japan declares war on Germany
21.10.1914 - Turkish fleet blocks Bosphorus and Dardanelles
29.10.1914 - Turkish fleet attacks Russian coastline
02.11.1914 - Russia, Great Britain and France declare war on Turkey
05.11.1914 - other Entente states declare war on Turkey
12.11.1914 - Turkey announces Jihad

Etc., etc.

So clearly and undoubtedly Austro-Hungarians and Germans started WW1.
You left out mobilization dates, which constituted an act of war as well as they were a direct threat to a country's safety, the formal declaration of war was just that, a formality. The Allies, especially the French and Russians, deliberately entered a war over the pretense of protecting Serbia but in reality had their very own reasons to do so. Russia wanted to expand her influence on the Balkan at Austrias expense, France wanted revenge for their defeat in the 1870/71 war against the German states and regain Alsace Lorraine / Elsaß Lothringen.

Considering this, the above opinion which puts all blame on Austria-Hungary and the German Empire doesn't really reflect reality.

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Re: Why Westpreussen is an artificial name & (Ost)Preussen i

Post by SashaWa » 15 Nov 2010 20:25

The Allies, especially the French and Russians, deliberately entered a war over the pretense of protecting Serbia but in reality had their very own reasons to do so. Russia wanted to expand her influence on the Balkan at Austrias expense, France wanted revenge for their defeat in the 1870/71 war against the German states and regain Alsace Lorraine / Elsaß Lothringen.
And Germany planned to obtain Lebensraum at the expense of Russian Empire and nationalities within it. Baltic states, Poland, Ukraine, Belarus were to be ruled by German elite, with local population serving as virtual serfs to German minority.
In addition large plans of ethnic cleansing were envisioned with up to 2 million Poles, Jews and a number of Lithuanians to be removed to make room for German colonists.
The idea that Germany needs to wage war against neighbouring countries to cleanse non-German population was already expressed by future chancellor von Bulow before XX century started.
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Re: Why Westpreussen is an artificial name & (Ost)Preussen i

Post by Baltasar » 15 Nov 2010 21:11

All of the German war aims were in fact made after the war started, they entered the war without even knowing what they wanted to achieve in the end. Hence all those accusiations of yours are irrelevant in this discussion.

I'd be interested in sources about von Bülow and his expressed desire to wage war with any of the neighbours of the German Empire, be it for land or for whatever reason.

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Re: Why Westpreussen is an artificial name & (Ost)Preussen i

Post by SashaWa » 15 Nov 2010 21:40

All of the German war aims were in fact made after the war started, they entered the war without even knowing what they wanted to achieve in the end.
That is misleading-the German overall goals were already formulated before the war(Lebensraum, economical exploitation of Europe in Mitteleuropa plan)-the details were debated during the war but the overall goals were very clear even before WW1.
I'd be interested in sources about von Bülow and his expressed desire to wage war with any of the neighbours of the German Empire, be it for land or for whatever reason.
Hostages of Modernization: Studies on Modern Antisemitism 1870-1933/39 : Germany-Great Britain-France (Current Research on Antisemitism) (Vol 1) by Herbert A. Strauss (Hardcover - Dec 1992) page 35.

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Re: Why Westpreussen is an artificial name & (Ost)Preussen i

Post by Baltasar » 15 Nov 2010 21:59

SashaWa wrote:
All of the German war aims were in fact made after the war started, they entered the war without even knowing what they wanted to achieve in the end.
That is misleading-the German overall goals were already formulated before the war(Lebensraum, economical exploitation of Europe in Mitteleuropa plan)-the details were debated during the war but the overall goals were very clear even before WW1.
If you can come up with any official war aims, really literally any, I'd be somewhat surprised. Even a strategic paper during the July crisis would suffice. Everything else is just a plan which in turn is not worth anything.
Hostages of Modernization: Studies on Modern Antisemitism 1870-1933/39 : Germany-Great Britain-France (Current Research on Antisemitism) (Vol 1) by Herbert A. Strauss (Hardcover - Dec 1992) page 35.
Sorry, should've been clearer about the request: Where and when did he come up with that sort of idea? A quotation, preferably in German, would be awesome.

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Re: Why Westpreussen is an artificial name & (Ost)Preussen i

Post by Ken S. » 16 Nov 2010 00:49

Domen121 wrote: No, the Polish nation was never destroyed.

Although I forgot that in your strange English language "nation" sometimes means the same as "state".

I was referring to "nation" understood as "people". Yotvingian people were destroyed, Polish or Jewish - not.
I'm sure the Yotvingians were still maintaining a distinct identity a century after there homeland was partitioned. The process of assimilation would have gone on for some time. Had Poland not been recreated it's quite likely that by now (2010) the Polish people would have been assimilated. The Jews are in fact not a good example. These are not the same people who lost their land 2000 years ago, rather are the product of twenty centuries of intermarriage with non-Israelites and integration of non-Israelite cultures. They simply maintain the traditions of the Old Testament--despite the fact that Jesus the Messiah fulfilled the Laws, etc.
Yotvingia couldn't be partitioned in 1422, because it ceased to exist 139 years earlier:
Well it's not a mystery that Christian world - including Poland - was supporting the Teutons in their crusades.[/quote]

So you'll agree then that the Poles were participants in the genocide of the Yotvingian people?
Poland never would come into existence again had there been no WWI.
I have no idea why you think so.
Probably because Poland never would have come into existence had there not been a WWI. Of course it's fairly widely believed that war was inevitable, but had it started in 1910 or 1916, the circumstances would have been different and the war would not have developed the way that it did.
In terms of Polish borders in 1138 it is accurate. In terms of Yotvingian territory - not really.
That still makes the map inaccurate. And can you prove that the supposed Polish borders are accurate, too? Of course you'll say that they're accurate because it happens to suit your agenda.

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