The Polish area under Prussian control

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SashaWa
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Re: Why Westpreussen is an artificial name & (Ost)Preussen i

Post by SashaWa » 16 Nov 2010 02:36

Still no evidence from Ken S.or any example of alledged persecution of Germans by mysterious organisation composed of people who identified themselves as "Slavs" as opposed to seperate nationalities of that time.

That allegation was just made up I believe, considering repeated calls to provide any details.

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Re: Why Westpreussen is an artificial name & (Ost)Preussen i

Post by Ken S. » 16 Nov 2010 03:03

SashaWa wrote:Still no evidence from Ken S.or any example of alledged persecution of Germans by mysterious organisation composed of people who identified themselves as "Slavs" as opposed to seperate nationalities of that time.

That allegation was just made up I believe, considering repeated calls to provide any details.
I may as well come out and say it. I'm not providing examples because your continued refusal to acknowledge historical events makes you look like a complete fool and hypocrite.

Need I remind you again that I initially stated "German-speaking". Most were not German nationals, some had left Germany because of religious persecution.

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Re: Why Westpreussen is an artificial name & (Ost)Preussen i

Post by Baltasar » 16 Nov 2010 03:20

Ken, I'm not aware that there was any religious prosecution in Germany at the time of the German Empire as it itself was composed of catholic and protestant federal states. To my knowledge, Jews were also not in a worse position than in other countries at that time and Muslims weren't a widespread religion in western / central Europe at that time. Could you please clarify which religions were under prosecution?

The majority of immigrants also seem to have moved to other areas than eastern Europe, eg a sizable German speaking minority had settled in the USA.

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Re: Why Westpreussen is an artificial name & (Ost)Preussen i

Post by SashaWa » 16 Nov 2010 04:05

I'm not providing examples because your continued refusal to acknowledge historical events makes you look like a complete fool and hypocrite.
Ah yes, desperate personal attack and as usual no example. Obviously none will be provided since the claims about Germans being persecuted by mysterious organisation made of people identifing themselves as "Slavs" are fantasy-nothing like that existed.
Ken, I'm not aware that there was any religious prosecution in Germany at the time of the German Empire as it itself
Kulturkampf? Or about arrests of Polish priests? Bans on Polish religious songs and activites ? Of course this something completely different from Ken's fantasies.

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Re: Why Westpreussen is an artificial name & (Ost)Preussen i

Post by Ken S. » 16 Nov 2010 05:47

Baltasar wrote:Ken, I'm not aware that there was any religious prosecution in Germany at the time of the German Empire as it itself was composed of catholic and protestant federal states. To my knowledge, Jews were also not in a worse position than in other countries at that time and Muslims weren't a widespread religion in western / central Europe at that time. Could you please clarify which religions were under prosecution?
I simply said that they left Germany because of persecution, I don't recall being specific as to the time period. The movement of German-speaking people eastward had been occurring for centuries. The "religions" being persecuted would have been Christianity.

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Baltasar
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Re: Why Westpreussen is an artificial name & (Ost)Preussen i

Post by Baltasar » 16 Nov 2010 08:27

SashaWa wrote:
Ken, I'm not aware that there was any religious prosecution in Germany at the time of the German Empire as it itself
Kulturkampf? Or about arrests of Polish priests? Bans on Polish religious songs and activites ? Of course this something completely different from Ken's fantasies.
If you could just keep your selfish victim role to you, that might actually help to get this discussion somewhere. Since mistreatment of Poles seems to be the only topic you are intersted in, how about keeping that sort of stuff in the forum it belongs instead of trying to derail threads with entirely different topics?

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Baltasar
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Re: Why Westpreussen is an artificial name & (Ost)Preussen i

Post by Baltasar » 16 Nov 2010 08:33

Ken S. wrote:
Baltasar wrote:Ken, I'm not aware that there was any religious prosecution in Germany at the time of the German Empire as it itself was composed of catholic and protestant federal states. To my knowledge, Jews were also not in a worse position than in other countries at that time and Muslims weren't a widespread religion in western / central Europe at that time. Could you please clarify which religions were under prosecution?
I simply said that they left Germany because of persecution, I don't recall being specific as to the time period. The movement of German-speaking people eastward had been occurring for centuries. The "religions" being persecuted would have been Christianity.
I don't have any information about movements worth mentioning into the east. There were some enclaves of German speaking people in eastern Europe but as far as I understand they were few. If people left the German countries because of religious prosecution, they could've moved to the north (eg Sweden or Denmark) or the USA.

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Baltasar
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Re: Why Westpreussen is an artificial name & (Ost)Preussen i

Post by Baltasar » 16 Nov 2010 08:38

SashaWa wrote:
I'm not providing examples because your continued refusal to acknowledge historical events makes you look like a complete fool and hypocrite.
Ah yes, desperate personal attack and as usual no example.
Speaking of personal attacks and not coming up with examples, I'm still waiting for those mysterious German war aims.

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Re: Why Westpreussen is an artificial name & (Ost)Preussen i

Post by David Thompson » 16 Nov 2010 16:44

(1) The issue of this thread is whether "Westpreussen is an artificial name & (Ost)Preussen isn't." Stay on it.

(2) As a matter of policy and to encourage the rational discussion of historical issues, AHF actively discourages flamebait posting. This means you, SashaWa. You've been a member for less than a week, and we've already had to lock one thread, in large part due to your misconduct. Our rules, and the reasons for them, are posted in detail at http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=53962. Read them before you post again.

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Re: Why Westpreussen is an artificial name & (Ost)Preussen i

Post by Baltasar » 16 Nov 2010 17:49

The issue of this thread is whether "Westpreussen is an artificial name & (Ost)Preussen isn't."
That really comes down to a point of view. Names are given at some point in time and not even neccessarily by the people living in there, Germans are one example here. The name was given by the Romans but it stuck. Then we have eg Istambul which has had several names during it's past, yet I'm not aware of people who want it renamed eg Constantinople. Chosing a name like Westpreussen falls into the same cathegory, the only difference is that the name is not universially accepted, it's actually only a minority using it, but that is again similar to Poles saying Gdansk (sp?) while Germans call that city Danzig or British saying Cologne while the Germans stick to Köln.

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Re: Why Westpreussen is an artificial name & (Ost)Preussen i

Post by SashaWa » 17 Nov 2010 03:03

I'm still waiting for those mysterious German war aims.
Hardly mysterious-I recommend Immanuel Geiss "Polnisches Grenzstreifen" as a good book to start.

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Re: Why Westpreussen is an artificial name & (Ost)Preussen i

Post by Baltasar » 17 Nov 2010 05:14

SashaWa wrote:
I'm still waiting for those mysterious German war aims.
Hardly mysterious-I recommend Immanuel Geiss "Polnisches Grenzstreifen" as a good book to start.
Hardly official, which is the only stuff that counts. Besides, it's actually Emanuel Geiss and I couldn't find any info about him or the book.

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Re: Why Westpreussen is an artificial name & (Ost)Preussen i

Post by Ken S. » 17 Nov 2010 05:40

Here's his entry in the DNB database:

http://d-nb.info/gnd/121067211

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Re: Why Westpreussen is an artificial name & (Ost)Preussen i

Post by murx » 17 Nov 2010 11:49

Just for the fun of knowing it:


European history in 10 words

"Ger-man" (somebody with a spear) was used by Romans as name of certain tribes which called themselves Suebes, Vandals or Teutons. ("Teuton's land" became "Deutschland" , those using the roman term say "Germany").
The romans also used a signet for "german", which became famous in another context and with slightly changed meaning. That sign, meaning and obviously showing a "German", is attached.
When the Suebes together with their neighbors, the Vandals crossed the Roman Limes fortifications, moved south towards the Iberian territory, steadily "vandalising" what was in their way, they created another artefact named "Vandalusia", known today as "Andalusia". Another one: "Prussia" originates from "Borussia" or "Pro-russia" and means "close to the Russians". My grand-grand father was one. He was in Napoleons army who tried to storm and plunder Moscow. Seriously injured during the march back he was left, like all others being unable to march, in Eastern Prussia. Being also protestant made him later move to Berlin which was some safe haven for French protestants at that time. The influences of the French community in Berlin can be seen at one university hospital, called "charite´" since then. During "Friederich the Great" the standard language of the Prussian aristocracy even was French, german being regarded as a primitive language of the lower classes. Another result of Fritz's romantic personality part was the creation of "Dresden", which was an artwork of urban architecture.
When Denmark, Sweden, Norway, France, Austria, Russia and whoever else fought their 30 years war on German soil, reducing the civilian german population by 30%, the population had seen atrocities requiring 120 years to recover from. In a "war-lesson-learned"-reaction the Prussians, being tired of having been defeated by victorious nations like Denmark, founded their famous military academy.
That became increasingly popular after the first successes, which in fact occured defeating Denmark. The biggest one however only was achieved with the help of the southern German countries, the Suebes and Bavarians: Napoleon III. was defeated in 1871.
Napoleon III. , feeling so encircled and threatened by enemies by the pure announcment of a Suebian prince from the middle of nowhere becoming candidate for the spanish crown, that he declared preemptive war on Germany. (The Germans later, being in reality encircled by the French and Russian empires, showed comparable panic reactions for which others blame them until present.
The assistance of the southern German states to assist the Prussians by the way was delivered only under the condition not having to carry the "Pickelhaube".
The success however made the military academy popular among the people. Later it lead to the German Reich foundation in 1871.
.
That miltary part of those days is the origin of the early day legend of the Prussians being militarists, trying to conquer the rest of the world in a state of some kind of intrinsic genetic imperialism. Those who tell the tale forget to add that those fights in tzhe early days were fought on Prussian and German territory, the armies of the"world" moving inwards, not the Prussians to the outer side.


My message: In principal everything in history is an artefact, even "history" itself.
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SashaWa
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Re: Why Westpreussen is an artificial name & (Ost)Preussen i

Post by SashaWa » 17 Nov 2010 13:50

That miltary part of those days is the origin of the early day legend of the Prussians being militarists, trying to conquer the rest of the world in a state of some kind of intrinsic genetic imperialism.
That is inccorrect. Prussian militarism was based on domination of military in political and social life in Prussia, not on the numbers of wars it led.
As to the rest-that's a lot of Prussian nationalist claims that have no place here.
Another one: "Prussia" originates from "Borussia" or "Pro-russia" and means "close to the Russians"
Its from the name of native people later exterminated by German colonists-Borusci, named by Ptolemy in 2 century AD. It has nothing to do with Russia.
During "Friederich the Great" the standard language of the Prussian aristocracy even was French, german being regarded as a primitive language of the lower classes.
Hardly, Frederick the Great settled hundreds of thousands of Germans into areas conquered from Poland to germanize them, and sought to eradicate Polish culture, he also discriminate his subjects on religious grounds and taxed certain ethnic groups higher than others.

Hardly official, which is the only stuff that counts.
The whole book is filled with official documents.
Besides, it's actually Emanuel Geiss and I couldn't find any info about him or the book.
Its Imanuel, and actually he is one of the most prominent German historians. A simple google book search gives 22.000 results for his name with dozens of books by him....

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