Additional *realistic* post-1800 cases of nations acquiring Lebensraum (living space)?

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South
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Re: Additional *realistic* post-1800 cases of nations acquiring Lebensraum (living space)?

Post by South » 08 Sep 2018 17:50

Good afternoon Jesk,

Those are real good maps. Most appreciative re you posting.

I'm a map nut !

~ Bob
eastern Virginia, USA

Sid Guttridge
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Re: Additional *realistic* post-1800 cases of nations acquiring Lebensraum (living space)?

Post by Sid Guttridge » 08 Sep 2018 18:55

Hi South,

You write, "I do not..... use the term "Lebensraum" for all land acquisitions."

And neither do I!

That is why I differentiate between pre-1967 Israel proper and the adjacent long-term settlements it has allowed to spring up over the pre-1967 border, from all the temporary conquests from which Israel has since withdrawn. The former were territories acquired for settlement as a Jewish homeland, while the latter (including your Sinai) were temporary security acquisitions to protect them.

No, I am not discussing "security arrangements". I am discussing Israel as a "realistic post-1800 case of a nation acquiring living space.".

The fact is that only about 15,000 Jews lived in Turkish Palestine in 1900, whereas of 6,500,000 do so now. Furthermore, in achieving this, a very sizeable proportion of the majority population in 1900 was displaced and is not allowed to return.

If it walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, it probably is a duck!

Cheers,

Sid.

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Re: Additional *realistic* post-1800 cases of nations acquiring Lebensraum (living space)?

Post by jesk » 09 Sep 2018 21:53

Sid Guttridge wrote:
08 Sep 2018 18:55
The fact is that only about 15,000 Jews lived in Turkish Palestine in 1900, whereas of 6,500,000 do so now. Furthermore, in achieving this, a very sizeable proportion of the majority population in 1900 was displaced and is not allowed to return.
The population of Palestine in 1890

432 thousand Arabs, 57 thousand Christians and 43 thousand Jews

1900

  450 thousand Arabs and 50 thousand Jews

1919

  568 thousand Muslim Arabs, 74 thousand Christians and 58 thousand Jews

1922

584 thousand Arab Muslims, 71 thousand Christians and 84 thousand Jews

http://www.iarex.ru/articles/39652.html

A significant difference of Jewish colonization, it was not agrarian. Jews did not go for land as European settlers. Now Israel is 18th in the world in terms of population density, 370 people per square kilometer. Israel is a dubious example of expanding the living space.

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Re: Additional *realistic* post-1800 cases of nations acquiring Lebensraum (living space)?

Post by Sid Guttridge » 10 Sep 2018 16:54

Hi Jesk,

All very interesting.

However, even on your offered figures, before Zionism stimulated immigration from the 1890s, barely 8% (43,000) of the population was Jewish. There are now over 6,500,000 Jews there and much of the original 91% population and its descendants has been displaced and not allowed to return.

However one looks at it, Israel appears very much like a "realistic post-1800 case of a nation acquiring living space."

Cheers,

Sid.

jesk
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Re: Additional *realistic* post-1800 cases of nations acquiring Lebensraum (living space)?

Post by jesk » 10 Sep 2018 20:19

Sid Guttridge wrote:
10 Sep 2018 16:54
However, even on your offered figures, before Zionism stimulated immigration from the 1890s, barely 8% (43,000) of the population was Jewish. There are now over 6,500,000 Jews there and much of the original 91% population and its descendants has been displaced and not allowed to return.

However one looks at it, Israel appears very much like a "realistic post-1800 case of a nation acquiring living space."
Yes, I read on the topic. Ethnic cleansing was. Israel even banned the return of refugees to their homes, who subsequently received Israeli citizenship. This was done with a view to strengthening the position of Israel as a national state of Jews.

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wm
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Re: Additional *realistic* post-1800 cases of nations acquiring Lebensraum (living space)?

Post by wm » 18 Sep 2018 02:10

51nAwSlj65L._SX323_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg
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Re: Additional *realistic* post-1800 cases of nations acquiring Lebensraum (living space)?

Post by Sid Guttridge » 18 Sep 2018 06:22

Hi wm,

I have ordered it.

Thanks,

Sid.

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Re: Additional *realistic* post-1800 cases of nations acquiring Lebensraum (living space)?

Post by wm » 19 Sep 2018 16:48

Another one. It's professionally written and seems to be interesting.
against our better judgment.jpg
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South
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Re: Additional *realistic* post-1800 cases of nations acquiring Lebensraum (living space)?

Post by South » 19 Sep 2018 17:40

Good afternoon Wm,

Don't forget 3 key documents:

1. The Balfour Declaration; British Foreign Secretary Arthur Balfour was in discussions with Lord Rothschild regarding the literal location of the Third Temple so as to continue animal sacrifices.

2. Sykes-Picot had less to do with the Ferris ore mines and more so with another natural resource.

3. Tavarish Stalin made the public proclamation that the USSR would officially recognize, de jure, the irredenist movement seeking a new Israel. The Rosetta Stone is on the cover of one of the books Sid or you posted above: Dean Acheson. Myopic vision doesn't work. The more knowledgeable diplomat was Clark Clifford - later a US Secretary of Defence - who told Truman that he'd lose the election if he didn't recognize Israel. A/The main factor was the 41 electoral votes of New York state, a large Jewish-populated state - most especially New York City.

The overall arrangement was for the Hashemites to be given the eastern section of the British mandate and the Jewish eastern Med population and the Arab non-Jewish (there was overlap) also to get a section of the British Mandate west of the new TransJordan.

As much as a mess the area yielded to the world, envision a Soviet presence in the eastern Med 1948 onward.

Meanwhile, what's the Brent spot against West Texas' ?

~ Bob
eastern Virginia, USA

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wm
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Re: Additional *realistic* post-1800 cases of nations acquiring Lebensraum (living space)?

Post by wm » 19 Sep 2018 18:27

Isreal has been created legitimately the author doesn't dispute that. She doesn't say Isreal should be disappeared.

She says the planet would be a better place without it.
That its existence has permanently destabilized large territories and seriously damaged American and Western interests so its creation was a mistake.

South
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Re: Additional *realistic* post-1800 cases of nations acquiring Lebensraum (living space)?

Post by South » 19 Sep 2018 19:14

Good afternoon Wm,

Appreciate reply.

~ Bob
eastern Virginia, USA

Sid Guttridge
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Re: Additional *realistic* post-1800 cases of nations acquiring Lebensraum (living space)?

Post by Sid Guttridge » 20 Sep 2018 09:18

I am not sure the Palestinians would agree that Israel was created legitimately! They are wondering by what legitimate right the British had allowed Jewish settlement between the wars and by what right Israel was recognized after WWI by the UN when (1) they (the Palestinians) had no representaton there and (2) no Palestinian state was recognized at the same time.

They probably see it as UN-tolerated ethnic cleansing. It is difficult to argue against that point.

Cheers,

Sid.

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wm
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Re: Additional *realistic* post-1800 cases of nations acquiring Lebensraum (living space)?

Post by wm » 20 Sep 2018 18:25

It was an effective conquest legitimized unanimously by all major powers, that makes it legitimate.

The Palestinians, morality, rights/wrongs have nothing to do with it. After all who shall watch the watchers themselves.

The ethnic cleansing happened after the decision had been made so it's irrelevant too.

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Re: Additional *realistic* post-1800 cases of nations acquiring Lebensraum (living space)?

Post by Sid Guttridge » 21 Sep 2018 17:25

Hi wm,

The agreement of the major powers is irrelevant in terms of legitimacy. Legitimacy is a legal matter, regardless of their opinions.

Sadly, it is true that ".....morality, rights/wrongs have nothing to do with it."

If they did, Western Civilization (to which all the UN veto powers belonged in 1947-48) would have compensated the Jews for what some of its members had done to them in WWII without it being at the expense of a third party like the Arabs of Palestine.

Cheers,

Sid.

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wm
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Re: Additional *realistic* post-1800 cases of nations acquiring Lebensraum (living space)?

Post by wm » 21 Sep 2018 21:51

The problem is the superpowers don't recognize any legal authority over them.
And when they are members of such an authority, they enjoy the veto power.

Anyway, self-determination wasn't a thing then, it's not a thing even today. The Arabs didn't have any rights to that effect, it was a British territory.
There were laws which protected occupied territories but on your own territory, you were the king.
You could sell it to the highest bidder as the US sold Alaska.

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