Additional *realistic* post-1800 cases of nations acquiring Lebensraum (living space)?

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Sid Guttridge
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Re: Additional *realistic* post-1800 cases of nations acquiring Lebensraum (living space)?

Post by Sid Guttridge » 21 Sep 2018 22:13

Hi wm,

I would suggest that self determination was a thing then. The post-WWI nation states of Eastern Europe were the result of it. Indeed, Israel was a result of it. It was only the Palestinians who weren't.

Palestine wasn't a British territory. It was a League of Nations Mandate under British rule, like Iraq, Tanganyika, or South West Africa. Syria and Lebanon were French League of Nations Mandates and they got independence post war, like Israel, but unlike Palestine. The Palestinians seem to have been treated differently because they stood in the way of assuaging the Western World's collective guilt trip over the so-called "Holocaust" by giving the surviving Jews a state of their own in the lands they had left 2,000 years before.

Cheers,

Sid.

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Re: Additional *realistic* post-1800 cases of nations acquiring Lebensraum (living space)?

Post by wm » 22 Sep 2018 00:06

I'm afraid it wasn't collective guilt but the 1923 Palestine Mandate:
The Palestine Mandate
The Council of the League of Nations:
[...]
the Principal Allied Powers have also agreed that the Mandatory should be responsible for putting into effect the declaration originally made on November 2nd, 1917, by the Government of His Britannic Majesty, and adopted by the said Powers, in favor of the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people
[...]
The Mandatory shall be responsible for placing the country under such political, administrative and economic conditions as will secure the establishment of the Jewish national home
[...]
An appropriate Jewish agency shall be recognised as a public body for the purpose of advising and co-operating with the Administration of Palestine in such economic, social and other matters as may affect the establishment of the Jewish national home and the interests of the Jewish population in Palestine, and, subject always to the control of the Administration to assist and take part in the development of the country.
[...]
The Administration of Palestine, [...] shall facilitate Jewish immigration under suitable conditions and shall encourage, in co-operation with the Jewish agency referred to in Article 4, close settlement by Jews on the land
Post-ww2 the Jews forced the British out by a series of terrorist attacks including the King David Hotel bombing (91 dead).
Actually, the terrorist attacks started in 1942. For example, in 1944 Walter Guinness, the British minister of state in the Middle East was murdered.
In 1943 the Polish "Anders" Army had a (very) unofficial agreement with the Jewish underground that protected them from those attacks.

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Re: Additional *realistic* post-1800 cases of nations acquiring Lebensraum (living space)?

Post by wm » 22 Sep 2018 00:38

Sid Guttridge wrote:
21 Sep 2018 22:13
I would suggest that self determination was a thing then. The post-WWI nation states of Eastern Europe were the result of it.
Which country specifically do you have in mind?

Poland was established by Woodrow Wilson, not because the right of self-determination, but because he demanded it - or else.
And even if - it was only partially implemented there, the people living in the corridor were denied the right from the beginning.
The Hungarians, Sudeten Germans, South Tyrolians were denied the right too. South Tyrol was simply given as a prize to Italy.

It wasn't any self-determination, it was vae victis - the mercy of the victorious. It was based on Allies' will and political needs, not (non-existent anyway) international law.

We can have the right to self-determination or inviolability of borders, not both.

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Re: Additional *realistic* post-1800 cases of nations acquiring Lebensraum (living space)?

Post by Futurist » 22 Sep 2018 02:54

wm wrote:
22 Sep 2018 00:38
Sid Guttridge wrote:
21 Sep 2018 22:13
I would suggest that self determination was a thing then. The post-WWI nation states of Eastern Europe were the result of it.
Which country specifically do you have in mind?

Poland was established by Woodrow Wilson, not because the right of self-determination, but because he demanded it - or else.
And even if - it was only partially implemented there, the people living in the corridor were denied the right from the beginning.
The Hungarians, Sudeten Germans, South Tyrolians were denied the right too. South Tyrol was simply given as a prize to Italy.

It wasn't any self-determination, it was vae victis - the mercy of the victorious. It was based on Allies' will and political needs, not (non-existent anyway) international law.

We can have the right to self-determination or inviolability of borders, not both.
Are you suggesting that the Polish Corridor and the other territories that you mentioned should have had plebiscites after the end of World War I?

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Re: Additional *realistic* post-1800 cases of nations acquiring Lebensraum (living space)?

Post by wm » 22 Sep 2018 03:27

I'm certainly not going to propose solutions which had no chance in hell to be implemented. It would be a waste of time.

The Allies won the war and divided Europe according to their liking. Nothing wrong with that actually.
They were at least trying to do it right - after their own interests had been secured.

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Re: Additional *realistic* post-1800 cases of nations acquiring Lebensraum (living space)?

Post by Futurist » 22 Sep 2018 03:42

wm wrote:
22 Sep 2018 03:27
I'm certainly not going to propose solutions which had no chance in hell to be implemented. It would be a waste of time.

The Allies won the war and divided Europe according to their liking. Nothing wrong with that actually.
They were at least trying to do it right - after their own interests had been secured.
It does seem like Poland got a bit ripped off in the Versailles settlement, though. After all, Poland didn't get Danzig, Masuria, or western Upper Silesia while Czechoslovakia got three million Germans and the Poles in Teschen without a plebiscite.

The only significant gains that Poland got from Versailles were the Polish Corridor and eastern Upper Silesia--and Poland only got the latter after a plebiscite was held there and the post-plebiscite border drawing was rigged in Poland's favor.

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Re: Additional *realistic* post-1800 cases of nations acquiring Lebensraum (living space)?

Post by Futurist » 22 Sep 2018 03:53

Hey wm, I have a question for you:

Do you think that there was any potential for a canal connecting the Daugava and Dneiper Rivers?

Image

It does seem like such a canal would be a great way to connect the Baltic states to Ukraine and the Black Sea. Would this be enough to transform Riga into a large shipping hub?

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Re: Additional *realistic* post-1800 cases of nations acquiring Lebensraum (living space)?

Post by South » 22 Sep 2018 04:02

Good evening Sid,

Don't neglect to mention the place called TransJordan.

Self-determination in the former lands of the Czar, post WWI, has a history of its own.

If there's a political distinction between a British territory and a League of Nations mandate, the May, 1916 Sykes - Picot Agreement addressed this.

Actually, "Holocaust" was a clear-enough term. The actual Western Great Power maneuvering (read: United States with the Truman Doctrine) was to keep the USSR out of the Eastern Med.

The area newspaper "Jerusalem Post" was the renamed "Palestine Post" because Jews had a continuous area presence prior to and after General Allenby entering Jerusalem.

Again, it was less a "guilt trip" ... although this was maxed out for public opinion-molding ... and more so in re the Suez Canal and the nearby oil fields.


~ Bob
eastern Virginia, USA

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Re: Additional *realistic* post-1800 cases of nations acquiring Lebensraum (living space)?

Post by jesk » 22 Sep 2018 04:49

Futurist wrote:
22 Sep 2018 03:53
Hey wm, I have a question for you:

Do you think that there was any potential for a canal connecting the Daugava and Dneiper Rivers?

Image

It does seem like such a canal would be a great way to connect the Baltic states to Ukraine and the Black Sea. Would this be enough to transform Riga into a large shipping hub?
Great article on the topic.

http://www.unece.org/fileadmin/DAM/tran ... 20maps.pdf

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Re: Additional *realistic* post-1800 cases of nations acquiring Lebensraum (living space)?

Post by jesk » 22 Sep 2018 04:56

This channel was built in the 19th century and was operated until 1941, when the locks were blown up.

http://www.berezinsky.by/en/nature/cond ... er-system/

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Re: Additional *realistic* post-1800 cases of nations acquiring Lebensraum (living space)?

Post by wm » 22 Sep 2018 10:26

Impressively it was just one of many such canals.

But I suppose today the almost failed state of Ukraine has more pressing needs than a $5.4bln canal to nowhere.

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Re: Additional *realistic* post-1800 cases of nations acquiring Lebensraum (living space)?

Post by Futurist » 23 Sep 2018 04:33

wm wrote:
22 Sep 2018 10:26
Impressively it was just one of many such canals.

But I suppose today the almost failed state of Ukraine has more pressing needs than a $5.4bln canal to nowhere.
What about having Russia build this canal back in the days of the Russian Empire?

Also, out of curiosity--do you think that the Baltic states would have made good Lebensraum for Russia? After all, you are certainly dismissing their potential to be good Lebensraum for Germany; thus, I am wondering what your thoughts are on having these territories be Russian Lebensraum.

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Re: Additional *realistic* post-1800 cases of nations acquiring Lebensraum (living space)?

Post by wm » 23 Sep 2018 12:53

But the Russian Empire built that canal (and many more too), at the end of the eighteenth century.
The Soviets neglected and abandoned it, the communists were experts at neglecting things.

Germany couldn't afford Lebensraum.
Russia had/has so much "Lebensraum" they don't know what to do with it. :)

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Re: Additional *realistic* post-1800 cases of nations acquiring Lebensraum (living space)?

Post by Futurist » 23 Sep 2018 22:10

wm wrote:
23 Sep 2018 12:53
But the Russian Empire built that canal (and many more too), at the end of the eighteenth century.
What number is this canal on the maps in your link above?
The Soviets neglected and abandoned it, the communists were experts at neglecting things.
Amazing, isn't it? One would think that the Soviets would have supported infrastructure maintenance in the Soviet Union.
Germany couldn't afford Lebensraum.
What about Lebensraum in Czechia and Slovenia?
Russia had/has so much "Lebensraum" they don't know what to do with it. :)
Hence the logic of German nationalists that Russia should share some of this Lebensraum with them! ;)

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Re: Additional *realistic* post-1800 cases of nations acquiring Lebensraum (living space)?

Post by Sid Guttridge » 24 Sep 2018 09:25

Hi wm,

The 1917 declaration and the League of Nations between the wars say nothing about a Jewish State. It is understandably what Zionist Jews were after, but it was not what was promised them. That came in the collective guilt after WWII.

I have in mind all the nation states of Eastern and Central Europe that emerged from the collapse of the Austro-Hungarian, Russian, Turkish and German empires.

Are you saying that the sole instigator of a Polish state after WWI was the US president and that no Poles wanted one? I doubt it, but that is the implication of what you posted. Please clarify.

Certainly the Sudeten Germans and South Tyroleans (both actually Austrian subjects) were denied self-determination. But so was Austria. Why? Because having had the lead hand in starting WWI, the result would probably have been a larger, more consolidated German state. In other words the initial instigators and the defeated of WWI would have been major beneficiaries. This was never a practical proposition in the circumstances.

Hungary got its own state as well, for the first time in centuries, though not the larger one its nationalists wanted. But again, as co-owner of the Austro-Hungarian Empire, it too could not be seen to emerge without some punishment. It thus lost almost all of its minorities to newly emergent neighbours and considerable numbers of Hungarians living in consolidated majorities in southern Slovakia and central Romania.

While far from perfect, the post-WWI settlement in Eastern and Central saw many times more people gain self government than lost it. And most of the minority who lost it were members of the nations that had done most to both initiate WWI and had lost it.

Cheetrs,

Sid.

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