Additional *realistic* post-1800 cases of nations acquiring Lebensraum (living space)?

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wm
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Re: Additional *realistic* post-1800 cases of nations acquiring Lebensraum (living space)?

Post by wm » 24 Sep 2018 13:04

Sid Guttridge wrote:
24 Sep 2018 09:25
The 1917 declaration and the League of Nations between the wars say nothing about a Jewish State. It is understandably what Zionist Jews were after, but it was not what was promised them. That came in the collective guilt after WWII.
Of course it was "Jewish homeland", but the end of ww2 the homeland was sufficiently powerful to declare independence (on 14 May 1948). And:
This definition of the National Home has sometimes been taken to preclude the establishment of a Jewish State. But, though the phraseology was clearly intended to conciliate, as far as might be, Arab antagonism to the National Home, there is nothing in it to prohibit the ultimate establishment of a Jewish State, and Mr. Churchill himself has told us in evidence that no such prohibition was intended.
UNITED NATIONS SPECIAL COMMITTEE ON PALESTINE, REPORT TO THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY, New York 1947
..
Sid Guttridge wrote:
24 Sep 2018 09:25
I have in mind all the nation states of Eastern and Central Europe that emerged from the collapse of the Austro-Hungarian, Russian, Turkish and German empires.
After the collapse, the countries were more or less (rather less) created along ethnic lines, but only selected few were allowed to enjoy that, most weren't - this included territories conquered by the British and French Empires.
I don't deny borders were drawn along ethnic lines, I don't deny it was called self-determination.
But it wasn't an international rule, to be one it must be accepted by all and implemented everywhere. And it hasn't been to this day.
As you wrote yourself the employed by the Allies self-determination depended on "results" so it wasn't a law, it was the mercy of the victorious. No law should depend on results.

Sid Guttridge wrote:
24 Sep 2018 09:25
Are you saying that the sole instigator of a Polish state after WWI was the US president and that no Poles wanted one? I doubt it, but that is the implication of what you posted. Please clarify.
My point was the legitimacy of Wilson's statement wasn't based on a non-existent international rule but on the fact, the US and the Allies won the war, it was accepted by the Germans victor's justice. btw nothing wrong with that.
Last edited by wm on 24 Sep 2018 13:12, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Additional *realistic* post-1800 cases of nations acquiring Lebensraum (living space)?

Post by wm » 24 Sep 2018 13:10

Futurist wrote:
23 Sep 2018 22:10
What number is this canal on the maps in your link above?
None of them, it was my mistake, I confused one of the rivers with another. I tend to read long texts quite cursory, and this was a good example of that. Sorry!

Futurist wrote:
23 Sep 2018 22:10
What about Lebensraum in Czechia and Slovenia?
Lebensraum wasn't for Lebensraum sake. Autarky required food self-sufficiency, Lebensraum was going to deliver it.
But Czechia and Slovenia were mostly mountains.

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Re: Additional *realistic* post-1800 cases of nations acquiring Lebensraum (living space)?

Post by Sid Guttridge » 24 Sep 2018 16:52

Hi wm,

Yup, self determination wasn't practiced universally after WWI, but the results were certainly far more agreeable for the smaller nationalities of Eastern Europe than the situation prevailing before WWI.

You write, about the recreation of Poland after WWI, ".....it was accepted by the Germans as 'victor's justice' ". I note that you say "justice", not "injustice".

Cheers,

Sid.

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Re: Additional *realistic* post-1800 cases of nations acquiring Lebensraum (living space)?

Post by Futurist » 25 Sep 2018 03:11

wm wrote:
24 Sep 2018 13:10
Futurist wrote:
23 Sep 2018 22:10
What number is this canal on the maps in your link above?
None of them, it was my mistake, I confused one of the rivers with another. I tend to read long texts quite cursory, and this was a good example of that. Sorry!
OK.

Also, does this mean that there was no such canal (connecting the Dneiper and Dvina Rivers)?
wm wrote:
24 Sep 2018 13:10
Futurist wrote:
23 Sep 2018 22:10
What about Lebensraum in Czechia and Slovenia?
Lebensraum wasn't for Lebensraum sake. Autarky required food self-sufficiency, Lebensraum was going to deliver it.
But Czechia and Slovenia were mostly mountains.
That's the problem, isn't it? The Germans wanted food self-sufficiency but any attempt to annex highly agricultural areas would have resulted in a significant demographic problem for Germany.

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Re: Additional *realistic* post-1800 cases of nations acquiring Lebensraum (living space)?

Post by Sid Guttridge » 25 Sep 2018 13:35

Hi Guys,

Of course, they could just have had less babies.....

Besides, was Germany really necessarily not self-sufficient in food? It had several times the land area of the UK and barely twice the population.

It was also the world leader in developing chemical fertilizer.

Did Nazi Germany really need lebensraum to be self sufficient in food, or did it just want it?

Sid.

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Re: Additional *realistic* post-1800 cases of nations acquiring Lebensraum (living space)?

Post by wm » 25 Sep 2018 23:09

Germany suffered famine during the Great War, this demonstrates the problem was real.

Much later the Green Revolution changed lots of things.

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Re: Additional *realistic* post-1800 cases of nations acquiring Lebensraum (living space)?

Post by Futurist » 26 Sep 2018 02:53

wm wrote:
25 Sep 2018 23:09
Germany suffered famine during the Great War, this demonstrates the problem was real.

Much later the Green Revolution changed lots of things.
Interestingly enough, controlling the Ukrainian breadbasket in 1918 doesn't appear to have done much to alleviate the famine in Germany.

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Re: Additional *realistic* post-1800 cases of nations acquiring Lebensraum (living space)?

Post by wm » 26 Sep 2018 11:42

Ukraine was a seriously backward place, needed a lot of investment to become a true breadbasket. The Germans didn't have time to do that.

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Re: Additional *realistic* post-1800 cases of nations acquiring Lebensraum (living space)?

Post by Sid Guttridge » 26 Sep 2018 18:16

Hi wm,

Germany suffered starvation in WWI primarily because (1) millions of farm workers and farm animals were mobilized for the war and (2) because the British naval blockade was able to cut off the supply of guano-based fertilizer from Chile. So, no war, no starvation.

So, I ask again, did Nazi Germany really need lebensraum, or just want it?

Cheers,

Sid.

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Re: Additional *realistic* post-1800 cases of nations acquiring Lebensraum (living space)?

Post by Futurist » 26 Sep 2018 22:19

wm wrote:
26 Sep 2018 11:42
Ukraine was a seriously backward place, needed a lot of investment to become a true breadbasket. The Germans didn't have time to do that.
Would several decades have been enough for Germany to make Ukraine its breadbasket had it won WWI?

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Re: Additional *realistic* post-1800 cases of nations acquiring Lebensraum (living space)?

Post by Futurist » 26 Sep 2018 22:21

Sid Guttridge wrote:
26 Sep 2018 18:16
Hi wm,

Germany suffered starvation in WWI primarily because (1) millions of farm workers and farm animals were mobilized for the war and (2) because the British naval blockade was able to cut off the supply of guano-based fertilizer from Chile. So, no war, no starvation.
What about the Hindenburg Program? Did it also play a role in German starvation during WWI?
So, I ask again, did Nazi Germany really need lebensraum, or just want it?

Cheers,

Sid.
Well, German food security could have been attained through friendly relations with Germany's neighbors, no?

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Re: Additional *realistic* post-1800 cases of nations acquiring Lebensraum (living space)?

Post by wm » 27 Sep 2018 09:55

Autarky means no friends.
The strong man is most powerful alone - Mein Kampf.

Futurist wrote:Would several decades have been enough for Germany to make Ukraine its breadbasket had it won WWI?
The Nazis needed two years to achieve notable improvements in Ukraine, so certainly it wouldn't be decades.

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Re: Additional *realistic* post-1800 cases of nations acquiring Lebensraum (living space)?

Post by wm » 27 Sep 2018 10:08

Sid Guttridge wrote:no war, no starvation.
A major power needed the ability to wage wars, as in war is the continuation of politics by other means.
To be able to wage wars Germany had to achieve autarky - blockade of Germany (or Europe) was unavoidable for geopolitical reasons, the Great War demonstrated that nicely.
Autarky required Lebensraum, so Nazi Germany really needed Lebensraum.

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Re: Additional *realistic* post-1800 cases of nations acquiring Lebensraum (living space)?

Post by Futurist » 27 Sep 2018 17:19

Did pre-Hitler German governments also desire autarky?

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Re: Additional *realistic* post-1800 cases of nations acquiring Lebensraum (living space)?

Post by Sid Guttridge » 27 Sep 2018 20:02

Hi wm,

A novel idea - couldn't they have just tried Peace? How many Germans died of starvation over 1933-39?

Sid

P.S.

The Nazis had two years to achieve notable improvements in the Ukraine, but signally failed. It was the Romanians in Transnistria who had the most success in achieving notable improvements. (See Alexander Dallin's German Rule in Russia, 1941-1945 and Odessa 1941-1944)

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