Additional *realistic* post-1800 cases of nations acquiring Lebensraum (living space)?

Discussions on other historical eras.
Futurist
Member
Posts: 2269
Joined: 24 Dec 2015 00:02
Location: SoCal

Re: Additional *realistic* post-1800 cases of nations acquiring Lebensraum (living space)?

Post by Futurist » 27 Sep 2018 23:45

Sid Guttridge wrote:
27 Sep 2018 20:02
Hi wm,

A novel idea - couldn't they have just tried Peace? How many Germans died of starvation over 1933-39?

Sid

P.S.

The Nazis had two years to achieve notable improvements in the Ukraine, but signally failed. It was the Romanians in Transnistria who had the most success in achieving notable improvements. (See Alexander Dallin's German Rule in Russia, 1941-1945 and Odessa 1941-1944)
I've been wondering about this as well, actually. If Germany doesn't fight any wars with Britain, it should be safe from a British blockade. Also, Britain appears to have been very sympathetic towards Germany for most of the 1930s; indeed, it was remarkable that Germany pissed off Britain so much that it actually declared war on Germany in late 1939.

User avatar
wm
Member
Posts: 5241
Joined: 29 Dec 2006 20:11
Location: Poland

Re: Additional *realistic* post-1800 cases of nations acquiring Lebensraum (living space)?

Post by wm » 28 Sep 2018 23:36

Germany didn't intend to fight any wars with Britain. Hitler wrote it himself in Mein Kampf and repeated many times later.
So the desire alone wasn't sufficient to avoid war with Britain.

Britain wasn't sympathetic toward Germany, she was merely trying to weaken France by supporting Germany. It was power politics as usual.
Britain was able to do that and more because she was safe behind the Channel and her fleet.
Well, the Germans wanted to play power politics too but their Channel was going to be autarky.

Futurist wrote:Did pre-Hitler German governments also desire autarky?
The German Empire was aware of the problem and their solution was quick and short wars. It didn't end well.
The Weimar Republic had other problems and didn't even have a real army.


Sid Guttridge wrote:A novel idea - couldn't they have just tried Peace?
Many countries tried peace: Czechoslovakia, Finland, China, Ethiopia, the Baltic States - it didn't do them any good, they were all invaded and many of them enslaved.

Futurist
Member
Posts: 2269
Joined: 24 Dec 2015 00:02
Location: SoCal

Re: Additional *realistic* post-1800 cases of nations acquiring Lebensraum (living space)?

Post by Futurist » 29 Sep 2018 04:08

wm wrote:
28 Sep 2018 23:36
Sid Guttridge wrote:A novel idea - couldn't they have just tried Peace?
Many countries tried peace: Czechoslovakia, Finland, China, Ethiopia, the Baltic States - it didn't do them any good, they were all invaded and many of them enslaved.
That's an argument for preventative war, no? After all, if France and Russia are eventually going to invade you in any case, why not launch a war against them while the balance-of-power might still lie in your favor (as opposed to having war break out several decades later, when you'll be a pipsqueak in comparison to Russia)?

Sid Guttridge
Member
Posts: 7417
Joined: 12 Jun 2008 11:19

Re: Additional *realistic* post-1800 cases of nations acquiring Lebensraum (living space)?

Post by Sid Guttridge » 29 Sep 2018 09:17

Hi wm,

You write, "Many countries tried peace: Czechoslovakia, Finland, China, Ethiopia, the Baltic States - it didn't do them any good, they were all invaded and many of them enslaved."

You are right, they were all invaded by Germany and its allies of the time - Japan, Italy and the USSR.

And which of Germany's neighbours, the largest of which had barely half its population, were planning to invade and enslave it in the late 1930s? None!

Peace was an option that Nazi Germany rejected. Doubtless it didn't want a world war, but Hitler was keen to have a cheap, localized, winnable one against the Czechs, or Poles.

Cheers,

Sid.

User avatar
wm
Member
Posts: 5241
Joined: 29 Dec 2006 20:11
Location: Poland

Re: Additional *realistic* post-1800 cases of nations acquiring Lebensraum (living space)?

Post by wm » 29 Sep 2018 11:51

To be quite correct they weren't German allies at that time.
Germany supported China and for example, the heroic battle of Shanghai, called by some Stalingrad on the Yangtze was fought by Chinese armies trained and advised by German generals.
Similarly, Germany and Italy were rivals when the Italo-Ethiopian War started, not allies.

Hitler's wars actually had nothing to do with autarky, Nazi Germany never achieved autarky by any stretch of the imagination.
Autarky didn't mean war and didn't enable Hitler's wars, it only would give politicians more options in their political chess games with other countries.

Sid Guttridge
Member
Posts: 7417
Joined: 12 Jun 2008 11:19

Re: Additional *realistic* post-1800 cases of nations acquiring Lebensraum (living space)?

Post by Sid Guttridge » 29 Sep 2018 14:33

Hi wm,

They were all Germany's allies at some stage while they "enslaved" (your choice of word, not mine).

Cheers,

Sid.

South
Financial supporter
Posts: 3590
Joined: 06 Sep 2007 09:01
Location: USA

Re: Additional *realistic* post-1800 cases of nations acquiring Lebensraum (living space)?

Post by South » 29 Sep 2018 18:29

Good afternoon Sid,

Could Nazi Germany really have a peace option with their cancelled war reparations ? Wall Street USA was waiting for their accounts receivables concurrently with having a telegraph line directly to Capitol Hill, Washington, D.C.

Did the relatively new Soviet government have an opinion on peace ?


~ Bob
eastern Virginia, USA

Sid Guttridge
Member
Posts: 7417
Joined: 12 Jun 2008 11:19

Re: Additional *realistic* post-1800 cases of nations acquiring Lebensraum (living space)?

Post by Sid Guttridge » 29 Sep 2018 19:10

Hi South,

I don't recall anybody going to war over Germany's repudiation of reparations, or the reintroduction of conscription, or the creation of an air force, or remilitarizing the Rhineland, or occupying Austria. Nor did they go to war over the Sudetenland, or even the occupation of Bohemia-Moravia and Memel.

Each of these, (and others besides), was a casus bellum, if somebody was looking for a reason for war with Germany. But nobody was, so the Nazis had a free run until September 1939.

So yes, peace was demonstrably an option, but Nazi Germany just kept pushing until others had finally had enough and pushed back.

I am not sure what you refer to regarding the Soviet Government.

Cheers,

Sid.

ljadw
Member
Posts: 10263
Joined: 13 Jul 2009 17:50

Re: Additional *realistic* post-1800 cases of nations acquiring Lebensraum (living space)?

Post by ljadw » 29 Sep 2018 20:20

Futurist wrote:
27 Sep 2018 23:45
Sid Guttridge wrote:
27 Sep 2018 20:02
Hi wm,

A novel idea - couldn't they have just tried Peace? How many Germans died of starvation over 1933-39?

Sid

P.S.

The Nazis had two years to achieve notable improvements in the Ukraine, but signally failed. It was the Romanians in Transnistria who had the most success in achieving notable improvements. (See Alexander Dallin's German Rule in Russia, 1941-1945 and Odessa 1941-1944)
I've been wondering about this as well, actually. If Germany doesn't fight any wars with Britain, it should be safe from a British blockade. Also, Britain appears to have been very sympathetic towards Germany for most of the 1930s; indeed, it was remarkable that Germany pissed off Britain so much that it actually declared war on Germany in late 1939.
I would not say that Britain was sympathetic towards Germany/German aims.what Britain wanted was peace : if peace was saved by detaching Danzig from Germany, Britain did not object,if peace would be saved by the Anschluss of Danzig to Germany, Britain did not object .What Britain feared,was a new war, which,although Britain was convinced that it would win this war, would be the end of the Empire and Britain as world power . That's why in November 1937 Halifaxi ,on a visit in Germany, told the German leadership that Britain did not object if Germany would dominate Central Europe, as long this happened without war .

South
Financial supporter
Posts: 3590
Joined: 06 Sep 2007 09:01
Location: USA

Re: Additional *realistic* post-1800 cases of nations acquiring Lebensraum (living space)?

Post by South » 29 Sep 2018 22:22

Good afternoon Sid,

I'm using a different perspective but do understand your's.

The Great Depression and domestic US politics between Versailles and the renewed mass industrial warfare must be considered a delay mechanism.

The Soviet government did support the several Rosa Luxemburgs of Bavaria and elsewhere throughout the Reich.


~ Bob
eastern Virginia, USA

Sid Guttridge
Member
Posts: 7417
Joined: 12 Jun 2008 11:19

Re: Additional *realistic* post-1800 cases of nations acquiring Lebensraum (living space)?

Post by Sid Guttridge » 30 Sep 2018 12:39

Hi South,

If I recall correctly, Rosa Luxemburg and the Sparatacists were immediately after WWI, probably even before the foundation of the NSDAP or Hitler joining it, and over a decade before the Third Reich.

Cheers,

Sid.

Futurist
Member
Posts: 2269
Joined: 24 Dec 2015 00:02
Location: SoCal

Re: Additional *realistic* post-1800 cases of nations acquiring Lebensraum (living space)?

Post by Futurist » 01 Oct 2018 02:11

Sid Guttridge wrote:
30 Sep 2018 12:39
Hi South,

If I recall correctly, Rosa Luxemburg and the Sparatacists were immediately after WWI, probably even before the foundation of the NSDAP or Hitler joining it, and over a decade before the Third Reich.

Cheers,

Sid.
You mean "immediately killed after WWI," don't you?

South
Financial supporter
Posts: 3590
Joined: 06 Sep 2007 09:01
Location: USA

Re: Additional *realistic* post-1800 cases of nations acquiring Lebensraum (living space)?

Post by South » 01 Oct 2018 09:38

Good morning Sid and Realist,

Of course I presented that the Soviet government had political operations against the Reich. "Rosa" is an metonymy: a symbol.


~ Bob
eastern Virginia, USA

Futurist
Member
Posts: 2269
Joined: 24 Dec 2015 00:02
Location: SoCal

Re: Additional *realistic* post-1800 cases of nations acquiring Lebensraum (living space)?

Post by Futurist » 06 Oct 2018 05:21

Stephen_Rynerson wrote:
02 Apr 2016 16:14
Futurist wrote:Anyone?
China is the most obvious realistic instance I can think of where a country could have acquired "Lebensraum" through largely peaceful means -- had the Qing simply lifted restrictions on Han migration to Outer Mongolia and Tannu Tuva earlier, those territories would probably still be part of China today.
Stephen, I have a question for you:

What do you think that the odds are of Mongolia being permanently severed from China in a scenario where there was no Bolshevik Revolution in Russia?

Stephen_Rynerson
Member
Posts: 263
Joined: 07 Jul 2013 05:08

Re: Additional *realistic* post-1800 cases of nations acquiring Lebensraum (living space)?

Post by Stephen_Rynerson » 16 Oct 2018 12:03

Futurist wrote:
06 Oct 2018 05:21
Stephen_Rynerson wrote:
02 Apr 2016 16:14
China is the most obvious realistic instance I can think of where a country could have acquired "Lebensraum" through largely peaceful means -- had the Qing simply lifted restrictions on Han migration to Outer Mongolia and Tannu Tuva earlier, those territories would probably still be part of China today.
Stephen, I have a question for you:

What do you think that the odds are of Mongolia being permanently severed from China in a scenario where there was no Bolshevik Revolution in Russia?
The odds are probably pretty strong, but without more information regarding the grounding of your hypothetical it gets into so much speculation so quickly that I'm not sure there's a good answer. Keep in mind that in our timeline Mongolia became independent in 1911 with the backing of imperial Russia and was only reoccupied by the Chinese in 1919, exploiting the distraction of the Russian Civil War. Thus, by assuming no Bolshevik Revolution, the status quo would actually still be an independent Mongolia and you'd need to articulate what condition either a still imperial or republican Russia (depending on whether your alternate history includes the February Revolution or not) would be in before being able to assess under what circumstances the ROC would be willing to risk a confrontation to try to reclaim the territory.

Return to “Other eras”