Additional *realistic* post-1800 cases of nations acquiring Lebensraum (living space)?

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Peter K
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Re: Additional *realistic* post-1800 cases of nations acquiring Lebensraum (living space)?

Post by Peter K » 21 Oct 2019 05:59

I wonder why did Germans claim that they needed more Lebensraum at the cost of Poles, considering that Eastern German territories (such as East Prussia, Pomerania and East Brandenburg) were actually sparsely populated compared to the core of ethnic Polish lands. This map shows population density in 1914. What later in 1945 became the "Regained Lands", was sparsely populated back in 1914:

Thick blue lines show borders between provinces:

Image
There are words which carry the presage of defeat. Defence is such a word. What is the result of an even victorious defence? The next attempt of imposing it to that weaker, defender. The attacker, despite temporary setback, feels the master of situation.

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wm
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Re: Additional *realistic* post-1800 cases of nations acquiring Lebensraum (living space)?

Post by wm » 21 Oct 2019 17:12

The territories were sparsely populated but they were no free land there, and lots of the land was in hands of large estate owners - the "Junker class."

Of course, Hitler could have taxed them out of existence as the British did, but he was too nice for that.

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Re: Additional *realistic* post-1800 cases of nations acquiring Lebensraum (living space)?

Post by Futurist » 06 Jan 2020 05:31

Hey wm, I have a question for you:

How successful do you think that Russia could have been in an ideal scenario in regards to getting huge numbers of Russians and other Slavs to settle in Russia's post-1800 territorial acquisitions? Obviously millions of Slavs did, in fact, settle in the Russian Far East and Central Asia (both of which Russia acquired after 1800) in real life, but I was wondering if the number of Slavic settlers in these regions could have realistically been several times greater than it was in real life. I was also wondering if the number of Slavic settlers in the Baltic states (especially Latvia and Estonia) could have realistically been several times greater in an ideal scenario. You previously talked about how Germans would be unwilling to settle en masse in the Baltic states after a German/CP WWI victory, but what about Russians and other Slavs in the event that Russia were to permanently keep the Baltic states?

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Re: Additional *realistic* post-1800 cases of nations acquiring Lebensraum (living space)?

Post by Futurist » 06 Jan 2020 05:33

wm wrote:
21 Oct 2019 17:12
The territories were sparsely populated but they were no free land there, and lots of the land was in hands of large estate owners - the "Junker class."

Of course, Hitler could have taxed them out of existence as the British did, but he was too nice for that.
The British taxed their large landlords out of existence?

Also, what about building more large cities (with large-scale industries and whatnot) in eastern Germany?

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Re: Additional *realistic* post-1800 cases of nations acquiring Lebensraum (living space)?

Post by Futurist » 06 Jan 2020 05:36

@Peter K: The Polish territories were actually fairly populated and still are:

Image

If Germany wanted more Lebensraum, it would have probably been prudent for it to aim at the Baltic states, Belarus, and the Russian territories south of St. Petersburg, west of Moscow, and north of Kiev. Of course, actually getting huge numbers of Germans to settle there would probably be quite a challenge as long as western Germany itself will not be overpopulated.

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Re: Additional *realistic* post-1800 cases of nations acquiring Lebensraum (living space)?

Post by Futurist » 06 Jan 2020 05:40

Stephen_Rynerson wrote:
16 Oct 2018 12:03
Futurist wrote:
06 Oct 2018 05:21
Stephen_Rynerson wrote:
02 Apr 2016 16:14
China is the most obvious realistic instance I can think of where a country could have acquired "Lebensraum" through largely peaceful means -- had the Qing simply lifted restrictions on Han migration to Outer Mongolia and Tannu Tuva earlier, those territories would probably still be part of China today.
Stephen, I have a question for you:

What do you think that the odds are of Mongolia being permanently severed from China in a scenario where there was no Bolshevik Revolution in Russia?
The odds are probably pretty strong, but without more information regarding the grounding of your hypothetical it gets into so much speculation so quickly that I'm not sure there's a good answer. Keep in mind that in our timeline Mongolia became independent in 1911 with the backing of imperial Russia and was only reoccupied by the Chinese in 1919, exploiting the distraction of the Russian Civil War. Thus, by assuming no Bolshevik Revolution, the status quo would actually still be an independent Mongolia and you'd need to articulate what condition either a still imperial or republican Russia (depending on whether your alternate history includes the February Revolution or not) would be in before being able to assess under what circumstances the ROC would be willing to risk a confrontation to try to reclaim the territory.
Question: Wasn't there a Russo-Sino-Mongolian agreement in 1915 that nominally recognized Chinese sovereignty over Mongolia but nevertheless gave Mongolia a lot of autonomy?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Kyakhta_(1915)

Let's say that there is no WWI at all--as in, ever. Does Russia ever support a fully independent Mongolia as opposed to an autonomous Mongolia that is still nominally part of China?

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Re: Additional *realistic* post-1800 cases of nations acquiring Lebensraum (living space)?

Post by Sid Guttridge » 06 Jan 2020 17:24

Hi fururist,

Russia, be it under Czarism, Communism, or the current klepto-capitalism, has been on a consistent underlying nationalist course to absorb all its neighbours for centuries and still is. I don't see why Mongolia would be any different from the various "-stans", "Baltics", etc., etc.

Cheers,

Sid..

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Re: Additional *realistic* post-1800 cases of nations acquiring Lebensraum (living space)?

Post by Futurist » 06 Jan 2020 23:52

Sid Guttridge wrote:
06 Jan 2020 17:24
Hi fururist,

Russia, be it under Czarism, Communism, or the current klepto-capitalism, has been on a consistent underlying nationalist course to absorb all its neighbours for centuries and still is. I don't see why Mongolia would be any different from the various "-stans", "Baltics", etc., etc.

Cheers,

Sid..
Oh, certainly--Russia can aim for an eventual Russian annexation of Mongolia. That said, though, what I was primarily curious about here is whether in the absence of WWI, Russia would have supported permanently keeping Mongolia under (nominal) Chinese rule.

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Re: Additional *realistic* post-1800 cases of nations acquiring Lebensraum (living space)?

Post by History Learner » 07 Jan 2020 00:38

I firmly believe the U.S. could've acquired both Mexico and Western Canada (90th Meridian Westwards).

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Re: Additional *realistic* post-1800 cases of nations acquiring Lebensraum (living space)?

Post by Futurist » 07 Jan 2020 00:49

History Learner wrote:
07 Jan 2020 00:38
I firmly believe the U.S. could've acquired both Mexico and Western Canada (90th Meridian Westwards).
How are you proposing the US to acquire western Canada?

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Re: Additional *realistic* post-1800 cases of nations acquiring Lebensraum (living space)?

Post by History Learner » 07 Jan 2020 00:54

Futurist wrote:
07 Jan 2020 00:49
History Learner wrote:
07 Jan 2020 00:38
I firmly believe the U.S. could've acquired both Mexico and Western Canada (90th Meridian Westwards).
How are you proposing the US to acquire western Canada?
The Metis nearly directly aligned with the U.S. and British Columbia had an active annexation movement that SecState Seward attempted to utilize to buy BC. Without BC, there is no Trans-Canada and no Trans-Canada means the Anglo-Canadians would be interested in just ridding themselves of the predominantly Pro-American region they already viewed as "the North American Siberia".

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Re: Additional *realistic* post-1800 cases of nations acquiring Lebensraum (living space)?

Post by Futurist » 08 Jan 2020 23:12

Why did the Metis ultimately refuse to align with the US? Also, by Trans-Canada, do you mean the railroad?

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Re: Additional *realistic* post-1800 cases of nations acquiring Lebensraum (living space)?

Post by wm » 09 Jan 2020 21:53

They would do that, for them it was their own California.

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Re: Additional *realistic* post-1800 cases of nations acquiring Lebensraum (living space)?

Post by Futurist » 09 Jan 2020 22:36

wm wrote:
09 Jan 2020 21:53
They would do that, for them it was their own California.
Are you talking about Mongolia being the Russians' California or about something else here, wm?

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