This is a great starting point to the history of the Nam war with an incredible amount of information about the war:
http://www.wellesley.edu/Polisci/wj/vietlink.html
And this spot is a good spot to read the history:
http://www.vwam.com/
VIETNAM
Ok, here's a chronology of the events for the Vietnam conflict. If anyone wants to add or correct something, please feel free to do so.Lord Gort wrote:I know it was a former French colony, but who attacked who, anyone willing to give me a chronology sort of thing?
• Vietnam was a French colony from 1847 until 1940
• 1940 was the invasion of Vietnam by Japan
• Resistance organized in the meantime by Vietnamese against Japan
• 1945 The French got back to Vietnam after WWII
• September, 1945, Ho Chi Minh announced the formation of the Democratic Republic of Vietnam
• 1949 Ho Chi Minh starts fight for independence, China becomes communist in the meantime and serves as a staging base for the guerrillas
• Surrender of the French in Dien Bien Phu May 1954, separation of Vietnam
• Geneva Conference, Minh recognized as leader of NV and Diem of SV
• General Election for the whole of Vietnam would be held before July, 1956, under the supervision of an international commission for uniting South and North
• Diem had no intention of holding elections for a united Vietnam which in turn lead to guerrilla attacks from NV
• 1959, US sends first troops in SV
• 1963, President Diem was overthrown by a military coup
• 1964 Gulf of Tonkin incident
• 1968 Tet offensive
• 1970, Nixon decided to send troops in Cambodia since it was used as a staging base for the communists
• In June, 1969, Nixon announced the first of the US troop withdrawals. The 540,000 US troops were to be reduced by 25,000
• 1973 peace plan agreed between U.S and NVA
• Conclusion of war, collapse of SV in ’75.
Greetings. I thought a proper explantion of the forces involved is needed. Often, overlooked is the fact that there were two distinct forces at work in South Vietnam. Initially, the insurgents were Viet Cong or communists/nationalists from South Vietnam against the government of South Vietnam. They fought for their own government in the south. Unfortunatley, operations by Us and South Vietnamese army units were effective in destroying the majority of these forces. The war was later escalated by the North Vietnamese when they sent regular forces across the border and down the HO Chi minh trail to aid their southern breathern. This led to the American escalation and the extended body count to both sides. Fighting was so intense that bodys were coming home daily by the hundreds unparalled since WW2. The campaigns in the Achou Valley were a mystery as no plan was present for a win. They just droped troops into a buker complex and mountain terrain and told the soldiers to kill everything in it.
The NVA and VietCong built comples underground that were fully operational cities with lighting, food facilities, hospitals, entertainment and billets. US troops could be patrolling above and never know they were there. In operations by US troops restrictions that hampered operations were imposed which set an unwinnable war as a apparant objective.
Imposistions inposed:
No bombing of Hanoi and the rail centers, harbor and downtown govt buildings
No incursions by troops into North Vietnam
No incursions into Cambodia or Laos
No on ground command control operations plannedconceived and implemented by general staff sitting in Saigon.
No wonder with the pent up frustration a Mai Lai occurred. Although, this is the one documented there were far more than reported. A vil would be pointed out as enemy controlled and enemy populized. orders were to seek and destroy all enemy combatants. The enemy was everyone in the village. Supplies were in the hootches or underground. Everything was razed and burned to the ground to access bunkers hidden. Alot of those burned villages would explode with hidden ordinance after set fire. How do you distinguish an enemy when they dress the same way as the citizens of the community. When alone you kill them all add them to the successful body count and go one to the next vil. The higher the body count the happier the higher ups would be. Hence, the term pooch the hootch.
The NVA and VietCong built comples underground that were fully operational cities with lighting, food facilities, hospitals, entertainment and billets. US troops could be patrolling above and never know they were there. In operations by US troops restrictions that hampered operations were imposed which set an unwinnable war as a apparant objective.
Imposistions inposed:
No bombing of Hanoi and the rail centers, harbor and downtown govt buildings
No incursions by troops into North Vietnam
No incursions into Cambodia or Laos
No on ground command control operations plannedconceived and implemented by general staff sitting in Saigon.
No wonder with the pent up frustration a Mai Lai occurred. Although, this is the one documented there were far more than reported. A vil would be pointed out as enemy controlled and enemy populized. orders were to seek and destroy all enemy combatants. The enemy was everyone in the village. Supplies were in the hootches or underground. Everything was razed and burned to the ground to access bunkers hidden. Alot of those burned villages would explode with hidden ordinance after set fire. How do you distinguish an enemy when they dress the same way as the citizens of the community. When alone you kill them all add them to the successful body count and go one to the next vil. The higher the body count the happier the higher ups would be. Hence, the term pooch the hootch.
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ChristopherPerrien
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What do you do when the villagers are aiding they enemy?
Mai Lai was caused by this. The story goes a platoon of soldiers lost their platoon sergeant ( their top sergeant and a man they respected) to a land mine which was outside of this village. Obviously some villager planted it.
The platoon leader(Lt. Calley) was a reject from a JUNIOR! college, who though some event managed to get a commision even though he failed "JUNIOR"college. In other words he was no better than the undisciplined privates he was leading, They were mad, he was mad, and things, "perhaps" got out of hand.
Were all the villagers guilty ? I doubt it, but this is a "war crime tactic" that partisans have used very effectively in many wars - hide behind or with innocents.
What do you do? - Kill'em all, let god sort'em out , any ideas?
Mai Lai was caused by this. The story goes a platoon of soldiers lost their platoon sergeant ( their top sergeant and a man they respected) to a land mine which was outside of this village. Obviously some villager planted it.
The platoon leader(Lt. Calley) was a reject from a JUNIOR! college, who though some event managed to get a commision even though he failed "JUNIOR"college. In other words he was no better than the undisciplined privates he was leading, They were mad, he was mad, and things, "perhaps" got out of hand.
Were all the villagers guilty ? I doubt it, but this is a "war crime tactic" that partisans have used very effectively in many wars - hide behind or with innocents.
What do you do? - Kill'em all, let god sort'em out , any ideas?
Lt calley was the scape goat on that one he had orders from his captain and above ranks to make the village friendly. Because, they were professional career soldiers and calley was not guess who took the hit. Pays to be a career yes man every time.
As to sorting them out Red King for dead red and black king for unknown.
As to sorting them out Red King for dead red and black king for unknown.
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ChristopherPerrien
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Lt.Calley was an incompetent fool, but it was the fault of the US Army for putting such a green person in a command position and bad luck that the actual leader the platoon "daddy" got killed by a mine. Given the caliber of US Army "inductees" at the time of Mai Lai they may have not had a alot of choices.
So much for the "winning the hearts and minds" approach, but this sort of thing should be a lesson to all countries that engage in anti-partisan
warfare, you can never win. The nazi's learned, it we learned it, and the Israelis will learn it.
So much for the "winning the hearts and minds" approach, but this sort of thing should be a lesson to all countries that engage in anti-partisan
warfare, you can never win. The nazi's learned, it we learned it, and the Israelis will learn it.
Maybe the casualty figures would be interesting:
US
47,000 KIA
11,000 died of other causes
303,000 WIA
South Vietnam
185-225,000 KIA
500-570,000 WIA
North Vietnam and Viet Cong
900,000 KIA
unknown, but probably huge number of WIA
More than 1 million civilians died in the conflict.
Another less discussed subject is the Vietnamese invasion of Cambodia in 1978 or the Sino-Vietnamese War in 1979.
US
47,000 KIA
11,000 died of other causes
303,000 WIA
South Vietnam
185-225,000 KIA
500-570,000 WIA
North Vietnam and Viet Cong
900,000 KIA
unknown, but probably huge number of WIA
More than 1 million civilians died in the conflict.
Another less discussed subject is the Vietnamese invasion of Cambodia in 1978 or the Sino-Vietnamese War in 1979.
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Psycho Mike
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Sadly there are to this day over 260 names missing on the Viet Nam Wall in Washington.
Those killed in Laos and Cambodia.
In all the years since the war not one Republican or Democrat have stepped forward to put these mens names on the wall. In fact to this day, both parties claim we were never in Laos.
Both parties should be condemned for this.
Those killed in Laos and Cambodia.
In all the years since the war not one Republican or Democrat have stepped forward to put these mens names on the wall. In fact to this day, both parties claim we were never in Laos.
Both parties should be condemned for this.
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ChristopherPerrien
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The entire US Government should be condemed for fighting an undeclared war..We are dam lucky any POW's came back because they were war criminal's from the view of international law.
It is a sad fact that neither political party has the balls to declare a war because that might be used against them in future re-elections bids. But yet they will let good American soldiers die.
Yes it is a great idea to have a big pact of unscrupulous lawyers running the place, hope they don't send your kids to an un-declared war because they won't fight it themselves.
It is a sad fact that neither political party has the balls to declare a war because that might be used against them in future re-elections bids. But yet they will let good American soldiers die.
Yes it is a great idea to have a big pact of unscrupulous lawyers running the place, hope they don't send your kids to an un-declared war because they won't fight it themselves.
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Lord Gort
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I spent a two weeks with the British Army at an officer training school. Part of the two weeks was being taugh modern military history, and looking at guerilla warfare. One lesson was opened upon saying that the US army used the wrong tactics when dealing with the Viet cong, and that the US should have learned from British actions in Malaya where a similer war was fought. I think that alot of that is pure baloney, but wanted to know your reactions.
regards,
regards,
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Psycho Mike
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Te Phoenix Program was initiated by the CIA to nuetralize the Viet Cong and their supporters. Although it is difficult to find copies of documents pertaining to this- one writer has released many of these in regards his book on this still controversial aspectof the war.
http://www.thememoryhole.org/phoenix/
http://www.thememoryhole.org/phoenix/
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Psycho Mike
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I think the Malaysia example is proof that guerilla warfare can be defeated. So are the pirate wars that led to the founding of the Royal Navy and America's Indian wars after the Civil war. C Kliesch above I think raises problems we had during the Nam war.
The common slang used to describe the Vietnamese drew no distinction between North and south. We are told the South did not want to fight. Yet I have seen film footage of policemen firing at VC during the Tet offensive. Handguns against automatic weapons!
To the officers that fought there, the big split in military thinking occured that ruled our responses until recently. One group said avoid war at any cost. Negotiate without time limits.The other group said make a rapid and decisive onslaught removing the government. Avoid empowering them by endless talks. The recent Iraq war was planned by officers who felt endless negotiations were not the way to fight. It is no coincidence most of those that came up with the ideas --- had fought in Viet Nam.
While the left harps that Iraq was not a "proper enemy" hey, the Vietnamese often lived in hamlets, owned no cars, were in the main farmers. Iraq was far more civilized than Viet Nam!
It is a question of tactics, not morality, not people's war, not negotiations, that determines the winner on the battlefield.
The common slang used to describe the Vietnamese drew no distinction between North and south. We are told the South did not want to fight. Yet I have seen film footage of policemen firing at VC during the Tet offensive. Handguns against automatic weapons!
To the officers that fought there, the big split in military thinking occured that ruled our responses until recently. One group said avoid war at any cost. Negotiate without time limits.The other group said make a rapid and decisive onslaught removing the government. Avoid empowering them by endless talks. The recent Iraq war was planned by officers who felt endless negotiations were not the way to fight. It is no coincidence most of those that came up with the ideas --- had fought in Viet Nam.
While the left harps that Iraq was not a "proper enemy" hey, the Vietnamese often lived in hamlets, owned no cars, were in the main farmers. Iraq was far more civilized than Viet Nam!
It is a question of tactics, not morality, not people's war, not negotiations, that determines the winner on the battlefield.
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col. klink
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Vietnam
Don't you mean the current Iraq War just like the current Afghanistan War? Neither has been concluded.
Topic
Sometime during 1965-66 a former commander of the British Forces in Malaya, a General Templar I believe, was invited to Vietnam with the intention of assessing how his Malaya protective hamlets might be applied to the situation in South Vietnam.
The differences between Malaya and Vietnam should have been obvious to all. Vietnam was populated by Vietnamese (Cholon being the exception) and the insurgents were Vietnamese. Malaya, on the other hand, was mainly populated by native Malays, Chinese and Indian/Pakistani people. The insurgents were almost completely Chinese, and the protected hamlets denied them any succur or support from the Malay occupied countryside.
Attempts at pacification in Vietnam - the strategic hamlet scheme - never did meet with the sort of success that Britains Malayan hamlet scheme enjoyed.
The differences between Malaya and Vietnam should have been obvious to all. Vietnam was populated by Vietnamese (Cholon being the exception) and the insurgents were Vietnamese. Malaya, on the other hand, was mainly populated by native Malays, Chinese and Indian/Pakistani people. The insurgents were almost completely Chinese, and the protected hamlets denied them any succur or support from the Malay occupied countryside.
Attempts at pacification in Vietnam - the strategic hamlet scheme - never did meet with the sort of success that Britains Malayan hamlet scheme enjoyed.