Most Decorated Soldier of All-Time

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Richard Anderson
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Re: Most Decorated Soldier of All-Time

#31

Post by Richard Anderson » 06 Oct 2018, 03:15

Yep, completely accurate, but has nothing to with what I was pointing out. The PH one became exclusively a "wound badge" after 22 September 1943
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Volyn
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Re: Most Decorated Soldier of All-Time

#32

Post by Volyn » 06 Oct 2018, 06:29

Richard Anderson wrote:
06 Oct 2018, 03:15
The PH became exclusively a "wound badge" after 22 September 1943
You are correct about the official formalizing of the award, however, is it known when the last PH was issued for anything other than a combat wound?

When it was re-created in 1932 it was issued for past wounds from the Civil War to WW1.
There were but two requirements: the applicant had to be alive at the time of application (no posthumous awards were permitted) and he had to prove that he had received a wound that necessitated treatment by a medical officer." -Wikipedia
The PH required additional formalizing in SEP 1943 because there was confusion about the eligibility required to be awarded the medal in WW2 - so they needed to tighten up the regulations. The modern PH (1932 - current) has only ever been awarded for wounds received in combat. Someone who is injured in a non-combat situation i.e. breaking an arm while performing duties, even in a combat theater, will not receive a PH.

Many nations acknowledge the wartime/combat wounds of their soldiers with either wound stripes, chevrons, badges, ribbons or medals. So I am confused by the idea that it was somehow a frivolous American award. The reason why so many were awarded is because there were a lot of soldiers wounded in various American wars/conflicts since its reappearance in 1932; that is what happens when Armies go to battle.

Of course the awarding of this medal has been abused over the years by individual soldiers in each era of war for selfish reasons. However, that does not degrade the meaning or importance of this medal, or any other device, that is used to identify a soldier who has faced the enemy and was wounded. Only the Medal of Honor has a higher percentage of posthumous awards than the Purple Heart.

As it so happens I have both my Great-Grandfather's - WW1 and my Grandfather's - WW2 Purple Hearts, and the rest of their awards, framed and hanging on my wall; I know that they both "earned" their medals honestly.


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Re: Most Decorated Soldier of All-Time

#33

Post by Richard Anderson » 06 Oct 2018, 07:11

Volyn wrote:
06 Oct 2018, 06:29
Richard Anderson wrote:
06 Oct 2018, 03:15
The PH became exclusively a "wound badge" after 22 September 1943
You are correct about the official formalizing of the award, however, is it known when the last PH was issued for anything other than a combat wound?

When it was re-created in 1932 it was issued for past wounds from the Civil War to WW1.
There were but two requirements: the applicant had to be alive at the time of application (no posthumous awards were permitted) and he had to prove that he had received a wound that necessitated treatment by a medical officer." -Wikipedia
The PH required additional formalizing in SEP 1943 because there was confusion about the eligibility required to be awarded the medal in WW2 - so they needed to tighten up the regulations. The modern PH (1932 - current) has only ever been awarded for wounds received in combat. Someone who is injured in a non-combat situation i.e. breaking an arm while performing duties, even in a combat theater, will not receive a PH.

Many nations acknowledge the wartime/combat wounds of their soldiers with either wound stripes, chevrons, badges, ribbons or medals. So I am confused by the idea that it was somehow a frivolous American award. The reason why so many were awarded is because there were a lot of soldiers wounded in various American wars/conflicts since its reappearance in 1932; that is what happens when Armies go to battle.

Of course the awarding of this medal has been abused over the years by individual soldiers in each era of war for selfish reasons. However, that does not degrade the meaning or importance of this medal, or any other device, that is used to identify a soldier who has faced the enemy and was wounded. Only the Medal of Honor has a higher percentage of posthumous awards than the Purple Heart.

As it so happens I have both my Great-Grandfather's - WW1 and my Grandfather's - WW2 Purple Hearts, and the rest of their awards, framed and hanging on my wall; I know that they both "earned" their medals honestly.
War Department GO 3 of 22 February 1932 established “the Purple Heart, established by General George Washington in 1782” ...“awarded to persons who, while serving in the Army of the United States, perform any singularly meritorious act of extraordinary fidelity or essential service.” Then, in parenthesis, “{A wound, which necessitates treatment by a medical officer, and which is received in action with an enemy of the United States, or as a result of an act of such enemy, may…be construed as resulting from a singularly meritorious act of essential service.)”

Sorry, mistook the date before, but it was 5 September 1942, when the War Department clarified the PH was exclusively an award for wounds or death in combat.

For more details, see the summary at the Army Historical Foundation website, https://armyhistory.org/the-purple-hear ... ecipients/
Richard C. Anderson Jr.

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Sid Guttridge
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Re: Most Decorated Soldier of All-Time

#34

Post by Sid Guttridge » 08 Oct 2018, 11:05

Hi Richard Anderson,

Thanks for the information.

As far as this thread goes, the Purple Heart should probably not be included as many other countries (including the UK and Commonwealth) had no equivalent.

My father's anecdote illustrated that being wounded was regarded as an occupational hazard of soldiering in the UK in WWII, whereas it merited a medal in the USA. Being wounded is something that can happen to one out of the blue (i.e. by a stray shell far behind the lines), and is no measure of merit, even if it is one of scarifice. This throws the value of "most decorated" into question as inclusion of the Purple Heart would undermine any like-for-like analysis. There may be other categories that differ between armed forces.

For your interest and possible amusement, see this photo, where Idi Amin cunningly upstages Emperor Bokassa by not wearing his own mass of self-awarded decorations: https://www.pinterest.ca/pin/480900066455490754

If you scroll down a little further, you will also see Idi in some of his real finery. Scroll down even further and you will find that Porfirio Diaz may have topped them both!

Cheers,

Sid.

Volyn
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Re: Most Decorated Soldier of All-Time

#35

Post by Volyn » 08 Oct 2018, 14:07

Sid Guttridge wrote:
08 Oct 2018, 11:05
As far as this thread goes, the Purple Heart should probably not be included as many other countries (including the UK and Commonwealth) had no equivalent.
Here is a quote from Wikipedia concerning your comments about the UK and Commonwealth -
The British Army began awarding a brass "Wound Stripe" in 1916, with approval by King George V. The badge was worn vertically on the left forearm and inset between the Good Conduct stripes, fastened through the uniform cloth. Additional badges were granted for subsequent wounds.

The badge was reintroduced in 1944 for the Second World War (1939-1945) and was discontinued after 1946. A yellow cloth version was introduced for use with Battle Dress. Previous awards during World War One were designated by a single red cloth stripe. British soldiers have not been awarded Wound Stripes for any conflict after World War Two.

Soldiers of the Australian Imperial Force, Canadian Expeditionary Force, New Zealand Expeditionary Force, and other Empire troops followed suit in the First World War, and issued wound stripes according to British practice. It was reintroduced for the Second World War but not the Korean War.

A version for the Canadian Forces uniform was developed and worn by soldiers injured on operational deployments beginning in the 1990s, including Afghanistan. The Sacrifice Medal replaced the wound stripe for all members of the Canadian Forces in 2008. The award has also been opened to soldiers of an allied force or civilians working for Canadian Forces personnel.
Evidently it is present in their uniform regulations and guidelines during certain eras, therefore, the Purple Heart and any other nation's wound identification badges qualify as part of the "combat awards". They are only awarded due to injuries sustained in combat, it does not matter if a "stray" bullet or piece of shrapnel hits you, it would not have happened if they were not present in a combat zone.

The highest awards that the United States presented were often given to soldier's who were wounded at the same time. For example: A minority of the Medal of Honor citations (WW1 - current) were awarded to someone who was not also wounded. The Purple Heart will often accompany the awarding of the Bronze Star Medal with "V", Silver Star Medal, Distinguished Service Cross or Medal of Honor because those recipients were also injured as a direct result of the fighting.

Other nation's (UK, Canada, Russia, Austria-Hungary, Germany, France, Poland, etc.) past or present award systems, either operated or still operate the same way; the higher awards are given to soldiers who continue to perform outstanding feats of bravery even though they are wounded.

So yes, it is acceptable that all wound devices and identification badges from any nation should be considered in this thread.

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Re: Most Decorated Soldier of All-Time

#36

Post by Sid Guttridge » 09 Oct 2018, 14:03

Hi Volyn,

Yes, I know about the wound stripe. It was not a decoration for meritorious service but an acknowledgement of sacrifice. A wound is something that happens to one, not something one pro-actively seeks. (Unless, of course, it is self inflicted, which I think we can all agree merits no decoration or uniform distinction as reward).

One also has to wonder whether campaign medals should be included? For example, 28,000 Falkland Island campaign medals were awarded, most to people who never set foot on the islands and not a few to people who never got within thousands of miles of the nearest Argentines.

And what about long service medals? Or the likes of marksmanship qualifications, or staff-college distinctions? Arm of service colours? etc., etc.?

What about rank badges? They are earned for effective service and accumulated experience over time. They are worn on the uniform as well.

Being the most decorated soldier of all time may not carry as much merit as would appear, if all these, and other, possibilities are to be included.

I would suggest that the more bling one is able to acquire in any armed forces, the less it is probably to be valued.

But all this is to stray from the meritorious individuals being asked about......

Cheers,

Sid.

P.S. Did the victims of "fragging" merit a Purple Heart?

Plain Old Dave
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Re: Most Decorated Soldier of All-Time

#37

Post by Plain Old Dave » 09 Oct 2018, 14:18

So yes, it is acceptable that all wound devices and identification badges from any nation should be considered in this thread.
I would disagree. The US Purple Heart doesn't require actual combat for the award, for one. If you're injured *in a combat zone *, regardless of actual combat, you qualify for it. I would imagine other nations have similar criteria. Really, we should restrict to personal awards for specific combat incidents.

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Re: Most Decorated Soldier of All-Time

#38

Post by Volyn » 09 Oct 2018, 18:05

Plain Old Dave wrote:
09 Oct 2018, 14:18
Really, we should restrict to personal awards for specific combat incidents.
My point is this - someone is not going to get listed on this thread just because they have a PH. If the personal awards for a specific individual are listed, most likely (not always), a PH will accompany the combat awards. Also, some of the awardees have multiple Purple Hearts, this is indicative of repeatedly engaging in combat related activities and facing hostile enemy actions.
Plain Old Dave wrote:
09 Oct 2018, 14:18
If you're injured *in a combat zone *, regardless of actual combat, you qualify for it.
I do not understand how this a sufficient enough reason to categorically preclude the PH from being listed among an individual's medal listings?

I have shown that virtually every relevant combatant nation discussed in this Forum has used some form of identification to mark a soldier as having been wounded in war. These nations all see them as high marks of distinction, why the disdain for them?
Sid Guttridge wrote:
09 Oct 2018, 14:03
Yes, I know about the wound stripe. It was not a decoration for meritorious service but an acknowledgement of sacrifice. A wound is something that happens to one, not something one pro-actively seeks.

Sid - You are correct, whether it is a wound stripe or Purple Heart it acknowledges the sacrifice. In the case of the highest awards, getting wounded and valorous combat often go hand-in-hand.
Sid Guttridge wrote:
09 Oct 2018, 14:03
One also has to wonder whether campaign medals should be included?

Yes - They should be included for this reason: It shows where you were.

Even if some campaigns were not given medals or if they seem frivolous, they still add nuance and context to the overall career and experiences of those soldiers who are listed.

To use Dan Daly as an example: He had at least 5 separate campaigns that he participated/fought in. This shows that he faced the "enemy" on numerous occasions and repeatedly demonstrated actions "beyond the call of duty" all over the world (China, Philippines, Mexico, Haiti, France, etc). At least 2 of those scenarios resulted in him getting awarded the Medal of Honor.

Campaign awards alone are insufficient to warrant mention on this particular thread - by why not mention someone's campaigns with their Medal of Honor, Victoria Cross, etc?
Sid Guttridge wrote:
09 Oct 2018, 14:03
And what about long service medals? Or the likes of marksmanship qualifications, or staff-college distinctions? Arm of service colours? etc., etc.? What about rank badges? They are earned for effective service and accumulated experience over time. They are worn on the uniform as well.

The simple answer to this - these types of items are not awarded for combat activities and therefore should not be included in the profile of soldiers on this thread. I fear you take too literally the term "Decorated", in this case it is only meant for the awards given for combat or leadership in combat from any given nation and their related medals for campaigns and wounds. The rank of a person should only be given in the title of the individual.

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Re: Most Decorated Soldier of All-Time

#39

Post by Plain Old Dave » 09 Oct 2018, 22:01


I do not understand how this a sufficient enough reason to categorically preclude the PH from being listed among an individual's medal listings?
It is entirely possible to get several PHs and be what's called a "fobbit." Sprain your ankle at Bagram, and unless the Awards Boards coordinate, you could get a Navy, Marine Corps, AND Army PH. Three awards boards, one noncombat action in a combat zone. And current guidance doesn't require service in a combat zone.

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Re: Most Decorated Soldier of All-Time

#40

Post by Volyn » 10 Oct 2018, 01:54

Plain Old Dave wrote:
09 Oct 2018, 22:01

I do not understand how this a sufficient enough reason to categorically preclude the PH from being listed among an individual's medal listings?
It is entirely possible to get several PHs and be what's called a "fobbit." Sprain your ankle at Bagram, and unless the Awards Boards coordinate, you could get a Navy, Marine Corps, AND Army PH. Three awards boards, one noncombat action in a combat zone. And current guidance doesn't require service in a combat zone.
That is a bit exaggerated but not totally inaccurate, however, the type of people who would be listed on this thread would not be in that category anyways. As I wrote previously, nobody will be listed in this thread for just having a Purple Heart, so what is the issue with listing it among their awards?

Seriously, how often does someone get awarded a Purple Heart for nothing? Please provide a real example, unproven "rumors" and "hearing" about it do not count. I know it has happened and it should not, but why do those relatively rare moments overshadow the entire award?

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Re: Most Decorated Soldier of All-Time

#41

Post by Richard Anderson » 10 Oct 2018, 05:03

Plain Old Dave wrote:
09 Oct 2018, 22:01
It is entirely possible to get several PHs and be what's called a "fobbit." Sprain your ankle at Bagram, and unless the Awards Boards coordinate, you could get a Navy, Marine Corps, AND Army PH. Three awards boards, one noncombat action in a combat zone. And current guidance doesn't require service in a combat zone.
Remotely possible. You should read the provisions of AR 600–8–22, dated 25 June 2015, para. 2-8. Purple Heart. A sprained ankle is unlikely to meet the criteria for a qualifying wound.

"g. Examples of enemy-related injuries which clearly justify award of the PH are as follows:
(1) Injury caused by enemy bullet, shrapnel, or other projectile created by enemy action.
(2) Injury caused by enemy-placed trap or mine.
(3) Injury caused by enemy-released chemical, biological, or nuclear agent.
(4) Injury caused by vehicle or aircraft accident resulting from enemy fire.
(5) Concussion injuries caused as a result of enemy-generated explosions.
(6) Mild traumatic brain injury or concussion severe enough to cause either loss of consciousness or restriction from
full duty due to persistent signs, symptoms, or clinical finding, or impaired brain function for a period greater than 48
hours from the time of the concussive incident.
h. Examples of injuries or wounds which clearly do not justify award of the PH are as follows:
(1) Frostbite (excluding severe frostbite requiring hospitalization from 7 December 1941 to 22 August 1951).
(2) Trench foot or immersion foot.
(3) Heat stroke.
(4) Food poisoning not caused by enemy agents.
(5) Chemical, biological, or nuclear agents not released by the enemy.
(6) Battle fatigue.
(7) Disease not directly caused by enemy agents.
(8) Accidents, to include explosive, aircraft, vehicular, and other accidental wounding not related to or caused by
enemy action.
(9) Self-inflicted wounds, except when in the heat of battle and not involving gross negligence.
(10) Post traumatic stress disorders.
(11) Airborne (for example, parachute/jump) injuries not caused by enemy action.
(12) Hearing loss and tinnitus (for example: ringing in the ears).
(13) Mild traumatic brain injury or concussions that do not either result in loss of consciousness or restriction from
full duty for a period greater than 48 hours due to persistent signs, symptoms, or physical finding of impaired brain
function.
(14) Abrasions and lacerations (unless of a severity to be incapacitating).
(15) Bruises (unless caused by direct impact of the enemy weapon and severe enough to require treatment by a
medical officer)
(16) Soft tissue injuries (for example, ligament, tendon or muscle strains, sprains, and so forth).
(17) First degree burns."

There is no "Awards Board" or "Boards". Authority for approval of a Purple Heart:

"During wartime the senior Army commander (SAC) in the combat theater may award the PH as approval authority when delegated by the SECARMY or the ASA (M&RA). The SECARMY or the ASA (M&RA) may authorize further delegation of approval or disapproval authority. The NPRC awards the PH to any member of the Army who, during World War I, was awarded a Meritorious Service Citation Certificate signed by the Commander in Chief, American Expeditionary Forces, or who was authorized to wear wound chevrons, upon written application. Approval authority for the PH for Army personnel wounded or killed as the result of an international terrorist attack or as the result of an attack by a foreign terrorist organization is the SECARMY. Authority to approve or disapprove recommendations for the award for Service members who did not receive a PH while serving in a unit with wartime awards approval authority is the Commander, HRC (U.S. Army Human Resources Command) and may be further delegated, in writing, no lower than the Branch Chief, ADB (Awards and Decorations Branch)."
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Ironmachine
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Re: Most Decorated Soldier of All-Time

#42

Post by Ironmachine » 10 Oct 2018, 08:25

Perhaps not the most decorated soldier of all-time, but a special mention should be made of William Manley (1831–1901), a surgeon in the British Army that took part in the Crimean War, the Waikato-Hauhau Maori War, the Franco-Prussian War, the Second Anglo-Afghan War, and the Anglo-Egyptian War. He earned many medals, including both the Victoria Cross and the Iron Cross.

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Re: Most Decorated Soldier of All-Time

#43

Post by Edward L. Hsiao » 10 Oct 2018, 11:39

Gentlemen,

Colonel George Everett Day,USAF had the Medal of Honor,Air Force Cross,Distinguished Service Medal(Air Force),Silver Star,Legion of Merit,Distinguished Flying Cross and others. Most decorated US Air Force officer of the Vietnam War. Passed away a few years ago.

Edward L. Hsiao

Volyn
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Re: Most Decorated Soldier of All-Time

#44

Post by Volyn » 10 Oct 2018, 14:46

Ironmachine wrote:
10 Oct 2018, 08:25
William Manley (1831–1901)
Edward L. Hsiao wrote:
10 Oct 2018, 11:39
Colonel George Everett Day, USAF
Great Additions Ironmachine and Edward Hsiao!

Colonel George Day - WW2, Korean War and Vietnam War
bud-day-270x365.jpg
bud-day-270x365.jpg (25.21 KiB) Viewed 1095 times
(Combat related awards and Campaigns Only)

Medal of Honor
Air Force Cross
Silver Star Medal
Distinguished Flying Cross
Bronze Star Medal with "V" and three oak leaf clusters - (4)
Purple Heart Medal with three oak leaf cluster - (4)
Air Force Outstanding Unit Award with "V"
Prisoner of War Medal
Asiatic-Pacific Campaign Medal
World War II Victory medal
Korean Service Medal
Vietnam Service Medal with two silver and three bronze service stars - (13)

Foreign:

Vietnam Gallantry Cross Unit Award
United Nations Korea Medal
Vietnam Campaign Medal
Republic of Korea War Service Medal

Surgeon General William Manley - Crimean War, New Zealand Land Wars, Franco-Prussian War, Second Anglo-Afghan War and Anglo-Egyptian War
MA_I175266_TePapa_Surgeon-General-W-G-N_thumb.jpg
MA_I175266_TePapa_Surgeon-General-W-G-N_thumb.jpg (23.44 KiB) Viewed 1095 times
(Combat related awards and Campaigns Only)

Victoria Cross - 1864
Crimea Medal - 1855
Afghanistan Medal - 1879
Egypt Medal with clasp "Tel-El-Kebir" - 1882

Foreign:

Iron Cross 2nd Class - (Imperial Germany, 1870)
War Commemorative Medal of 1870/71 (steel) - (Imperial Germany, 1871)
Khedive's Star - (Khedivate of Egypt)

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Re: Most Decorated Soldier of All-Time

#45

Post by Sid Guttridge » 10 Oct 2018, 19:59

Hi Volyn,

I am not against any of these awards. My point is that many of them should probably not be included here.

For example, campaign medals, as you say, "shows you were there". But my Falklands example shows that "there" could be a very long way from the action and describes no particular merit. They are not, as you say, "awarded for combat activities", but for being in the vague vicinity.

Not all medals are awarded with equal justification, either. I had 164 African soldiers in Rhodesia, all of whom were eligible for the General Service Medal. Only ten who had served more than three years actually got it. By contrast, a good friend of mine, who was a white civilian plumber from the US, joined the Police Reserve after the ceasefire and got a GSM for one short call-up during the 1980 elections.

My grandfather, who was in the Intelligence Corps at the time because he spoke fluent Italian, got a small military pension for injuries received falling off the the back of a truck in Italy in 1944 while taking cover. This might have got him a Purple Heart in the US. Recognition comes differently in different armed forces and not all of it is displayed on the uniform.

So, I would suggest that "the most decorated" should be restricted to those awards which recognize particular meritorious service beyond the normal call of duty.

Cheers,

Sid.

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