USA liberal governaments of Roosevelt and Truman mismanaged USA policy toward communism

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ljadw
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USA liberal governaments of Roosevelt and Truman mismanaged USA policy toward communism

Post by ljadw » 17 Sep 2019 13:35

wm wrote:
17 Sep 2019 08:48
It didn't matter who they were, the only important thing was they were capable to vote as a single bloc, and they had leaders capable to make it happen.
There was no Polish block, no Irish block, no catholic block,no Jewish block . Such things are only inventions from journalists .

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Re: USA liberal governaments of Roosevelt and Truman mismanaged USA policy toward communism

Post by ljadw » 17 Sep 2019 13:45

Prof.MacCarthy wrote:
17 Sep 2019 08:58
ljadw wrote:
17 Sep 2019 04:58
These facts were totally irrelevant for the actions of the USA : WWII was a war against the Axis, not against Stalin or Mao .
And the revolution of Stalin was not meant to be global : you never heard of ''socialism in one country '' ?
Most people in Europe (!) knew who was Stalin, only a few knew who was Mao .But most people outside Europe never heard of Stalin,and most of those who knew about him,did not care .
It is also not so that those who ignored what Stalin/Mao did,were Soviet agents or incompetent .During the Cold War,Western politicians collaborated with Franco, Salazar, Pinochet, the generals of Argentine,... against the SU. That does not mean that they adhered to the political opinions of Franco, Salazar, .... When Nixon visited China and made a deal with Mao, he did not became a communist .When FDR and Churchill made deals with Stalin,they did not became communists .
And you overestimate the influence of the Fabian Society,which was limited to left-wing intellectual groups .
Ljadw the concept of socialism in one country was a temporal strategy after revolutions in Europe fail after WW1 and it was not against the concepts of world communism and global revolution as Soviet leaders underlined. Those concepts were never abandoned neither by Stalin or by Mao. Comintern and later KGB was supporting and encouraging revolutions all over the world.

Now when you understand this you can understand also why USA in the time of Cold war was seeking allies also in Franco, Salazar or Pinochet. Because they were much lesser problem. It is maybe true that during WW2 Third Reich and Japan were the biggest problem. I would not object this, but for a reasonable person also the intentions of communism were clear. But in the case of China who was the biggest problem? International communism of course! USA realized this and really started to abandone phony policy of FDR administration only after Stalin and Mao started the Korean war. And policy of FDR and Truman governament were both shaped also by Soviet agents in the administration and Soviet sympathizers.
The Korean War was started by Kim,not by Mao or Stalin .
The concept of socialism in one country was not a tempoal stategy: after launching the Sputnik in 1957, the Soviets could easily have started a conventional war in Europa as US nuclear umbrella had disappeared and as NATO's conventional forces were almost inexistant . But the Soviets did not come .
That the Soviets were supporting and encouraging revolutions all over the world ( which mostly failed ) does not mean that that they wanted to dominate the world .They had not the power to do this and were already losing their grip over Eastern Europe .

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Re: USA liberal governaments of Roosevelt and Truman mismanaged USA policy toward communism

Post by OpanaPointer » 17 Sep 2019 13:56

Prof.MacCarthy wrote:
17 Sep 2019 09:11
So reasonable buddy what do you personally think was Harry Hopkins a Soviet agent?
Quite the weirdest thing I've read on the internet today.
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Re: USA liberal governaments of Roosevelt and Truman mismanaged USA policy toward communism

Post by Prof.MacCarthy » 17 Sep 2019 14:41

OpanaPointer wrote:
17 Sep 2019 13:56
Prof.MacCarthy wrote:
17 Sep 2019 09:11
So reasonable buddy what do you personally think was Harry Hopkins a Soviet agent?
Quite the weirdest thing I've read on the internet today.
Another big Soviet fish was most likely another Harry, Harry Wallace.

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Re: USA liberal governaments of Roosevelt and Truman mismanaged USA policy toward communism

Post by Prof.MacCarthy » 17 Sep 2019 14:52

Ljadw Kim was only doing what he was told to do by Stalin and Mao. It was decided on much higher level that China will engage in war directly and USSR inderectly.

Socialism in one country meant that communists will exploit Russia and other countries of USSR in the way of vampires, to make a socialist or communist superpower and than go for the global communism and revolution when they are strong enough. As they indeed did first in the agreement with Hitler and than with revolution in China after WW2 where than similair vampire regime was used to make red China superpower. In Korea they were stopped by United nations. But even later they continued of course.
Last edited by Prof.MacCarthy on 17 Sep 2019 15:12, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: USA liberal governaments of Roosevelt and Truman mismanaged USA policy toward communism

Post by Prof.MacCarthy » 17 Sep 2019 15:06

Wm i am glad that you pointed at Edvard Beneš who was indeed very naive about Stalin and incompetent to deal with communism even more than Roosevelt. Stalin allowed the theatre of democracy in Czechoslovakia after WW2 on the wishes of FDR/Truman etc, but took care that general Ludvik Svoboda another Soviet agent got the control over the army of Czechoslovakia and opened the door wide open for further communist and Soviet infiltration of the army. Because of this an intervention of Red army was even not needed in 1948 when communists made their revolution in Czechoslovakia. A lesson to all other countries of the free world!

https://www.hrad.cz/en/president-of-the ... ik-svoboda

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Re: USA liberal governaments of Roosevelt and Truman mismanaged USA policy toward communism

Post by OpanaPointer » 17 Sep 2019 15:35

Prof.MacCarthy wrote:
17 Sep 2019 14:41
OpanaPointer wrote:
17 Sep 2019 13:56
Prof.MacCarthy wrote:
17 Sep 2019 09:11
So reasonable buddy what do you personally think was Harry Hopkins a Soviet agent?
Quite the weirdest thing I've read on the internet today.
Another big Soviet fish was most likely another Harry, Harry Wallace.
If all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail.
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Re: USA liberal governaments of Roosevelt and Truman mismanaged USA policy toward communism

Post by Prof.MacCarthy » 17 Sep 2019 18:42

The dog which is barking is only warning about the danger, it does not bite.

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Re: USA liberal governaments of Roosevelt and Truman mismanaged USA policy toward communism

Post by wm » 17 Sep 2019 21:06

ljadw wrote:
17 Sep 2019 13:10
Bullitt is the last one to be used as a source on this subject : before the war,he was a Wilsonian LIberal,and was appointed by FDR as ambassador in the SU and in France : in both functions,he was a failure.Later he was fired by FDR because of his intrigues against Sumner Welles,and , only after the war, when it was obvious that his career was over,did he became Republican and anti-communist and then he advocated stupidities as to nuke China .
Other point : opposite to what Bullitt is saying, Hopkins was not the closest advisor of FDR for Foreign Affairs :the power of Hopkins was limited to LL : the big LL to Britain and the small LL to the USSR .
Nothing wrong with a Wilsonian liberal or a Republican anti-communist, he wasn't the only one.

I wonder what diplomatic achievements he had to deliver to be non-failure; in a genocidal country - tearing itself apart by purges, or in a country overran in a blink of an eye by the Germans.

btw Churchill advocated a no-warning, unprovoked, decapitating nuclear attack on the USSR too, was he a failure?

It's not about his failures, it's about the fact he, an eyewitness was there.

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Re: USA liberal governaments of Roosevelt and Truman mismanaged USA policy toward communism

Post by wm » 17 Sep 2019 21:17

Prof.MacCarthy wrote:
17 Sep 2019 15:06
Wm i am glad that you pointed at Edvard Beneš who was indeed very naive about Stalin and incompetent to deal with communism even more than Roosevelt.
Josef Kelvoda in his book Czechoslovakia's Role in Soviet Strategy says he was psychopathically ambitious. For a few more years of his presidency he was ready to sell his soul to the devil himself.

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Re: USA liberal governaments of Roosevelt and Truman mismanaged USA policy toward communism

Post by wm » 17 Sep 2019 22:13

ljadw wrote:
17 Sep 2019 13:45
The concept of socialism in one country was not a tempoal stategy: after launching the Sputnik in 1957, the Soviets could easily have started a conventional war in Europa as US nuclear umbrella had disappeared and as NATO's conventional forces were almost inexistant . But the Soviets did not come .
Outright aggression was against their doctrine (because too costly).
And yes they wanted to dominate the world. That they had not the power to do this is immaterial.
Each and every one of their writings prophesized the world will be dominated by communism in the near future.
Actually it was their holy "scientific" law, the final transition to communism.

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Re: USA liberal governaments of Roosevelt and Truman mismanaged USA policy toward communism

Post by OpanaPointer » 17 Sep 2019 22:14

Prof.MacCarthy wrote:
17 Sep 2019 18:42
The dog which is barking is only warning about the danger, it does not bite.
A stitch in time saves nine.
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Re: USA liberal governaments of Roosevelt and Truman mismanaged USA policy toward communism

Post by ljadw » 18 Sep 2019 06:13

wm wrote:
17 Sep 2019 21:06
ljadw wrote:
17 Sep 2019 13:10
Bullitt is the last one to be used as a source on this subject : before the war,he was a Wilsonian LIberal,and was appointed by FDR as ambassador in the SU and in France : in both functions,he was a failure.Later he was fired by FDR because of his intrigues against Sumner Welles,and , only after the war, when it was obvious that his career was over,did he became Republican and anti-communist and then he advocated stupidities as to nuke China .
Other point : opposite to what Bullitt is saying, Hopkins was not the closest advisor of FDR for Foreign Affairs :the power of Hopkins was limited to LL : the big LL to Britain and the small LL to the USSR .
Nothing wrong with a Wilsonian liberal or a Republican anti-communist, he wasn't the only one.

I wonder what diplomatic achievements he had to deliver to be non-failure; in a genocidal country - tearing itself apart by purges, or in a country overran in a blink of an eye by the Germans.

btw Churchill advocated a no-warning, unprovoked, decapitating nuclear attack on the USSR too, was he a failure?

It's not about his failures, it's about the fact he, an eyewitness was there.
Bullitt was fired as ambassador in the USSR and was fired as ambassador in France .He should never have been appointed ambassador .

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Re: USA liberal governaments of Roosevelt and Truman mismanaged USA policy toward communism

Post by ljadw » 18 Sep 2019 06:20

wm wrote:
17 Sep 2019 22:13
ljadw wrote:
17 Sep 2019 13:45
The concept of socialism in one country was not a tempoal stategy: after launching the Sputnik in 1957, the Soviets could easily have started a conventional war in Europa as US nuclear umbrella had disappeared and as NATO's conventional forces were almost inexistant . But the Soviets did not come .
Outright aggression was against their doctrine (because too costly).
And yes they wanted to dominate the world. That they had not the power to do this is immaterial.
Each and every one of their writings prophesized the world will be dominated by communism in the near future.
Actually it was their holy "scientific" law, the final transition to communism.
They were also saying that they wanted peace. :lol:
They knew very well that the world never would become communist .They could only hope to survive,as long as possible, and their survival depended on their capacity to satisfy the population by giving it what it wanted : a livestyle as in the capitalist world .

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Re: USA liberal governaments of Roosevelt and Truman mismanaged USA policy toward communism

Post by wm » 18 Sep 2019 07:39

The advance of industry, whose involuntary promoter is the bourgeoisie, replaces the isolation of the labourers, due to competition, by the revolutionary combination, due to association.
The development of Modern Industry, therefore, cuts from under its feet the very foundation on which the bourgeoisie produces and appropriates products.
What the bourgeoisie therefore produces, above all, are its own grave-diggers. Its fall and the victory of the proletariat are equally inevitable.
Manifesto of the Communist Party [1848]
Whether you like it or not, history is on our side. We will bury you!
Nikita Khrushchev [1956]

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