Most ambitious settler colonialist plans in modern/recent history?

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Most ambitious settler colonialist plans in modern/recent history?

Post by Futurist » 04 Dec 2020 00:24

Which settler colonialist plans were the most ambitious in modern/recent history? So far, I could think of:

*Zionism: There were very few Jews in Palestine in 1850 but over six million Jews in Israel and Palestine right now as a result of millions of Jews making aliyah to Israel and Palestine since 1880 or so.

*The Recovered Territories: Other than in Masuria and Upper Silesia, there were very few Poles in the Recovered Territories before World War II but several million Poles there right now. (The Czechoslovak, Lithuanian, and Russian post-World War II efforts to repopulate the Sudetenland, Memelland, and Kaliningrad Oblast with either Slavs or Lithuanians also fall into this category, but they were on a significantly smaller scale than for the Poles.)

*Nazi Germany's desire to conquer Lebensraum in Eastern Europe and to settle huge numbers of ethnic German Wehrbauer (soldier-peasants) there--though in its case, the problem was from where exactly Nazi Germany was actually supposed to get these surplus Germans?

*Manifest Destiny: The United States of America's desire to expand from sea to shining sea and to settle its newly acquired territory (especially, but not only, by White Americans) during the 19th century. This is closely related to the concept of the American frontier.

There were also some other events, such as the massive population deportations in the Soviet Union under Joseph Stalin, but AFAIK, these didn't really have a desire to alter the demographics of the recipient territory. So, for instance, when Stalin was deporting Soviet Germans to Siberia and Central Asia, he wasn't actually trying to Germanize these territories but rather to reduce the risk of German subversive activities. Ditto for Stalin deporting the Koryo-saram to Central Asia in 1937-1938, et cetera.

Anyway, which additional examples of this can you think of?

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Re: Most ambitious settler colonialist plans in modern/recent history?

Post by Sid Guttridge » 06 Dec 2020 08:02

Han Chinese in Tibet, Sinkiang, etc., etc.?

French in New Caledonia?

Both are ongoing.

Argentines in Patagonia? It was their version of the US's "Manifest Destiny".

If the US Manifest Destiny is included, then the contemporary colonization of Canada, Australia, New Zealand, South Africa, Southern Rhodesia, Kenya and the Falkland Islands must be, as well.

The French effort in North Africa was considerable. I think there were around a million Pieds Noires.

What about the Russian settlement of Siberia, most of which was contemporaneous with US Manifest Destiny and met it in Alaska?

Most of Brazil's interior was also settled by outsiders during the same time frame.

I suppose the Irish diaspora is largely a subset of British colonialism and US Manifest Destiny.

Cheers,

Sid.

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Re: Most ambitious settler colonialist plans in modern/recent history?

Post by Futurist » 06 Dec 2020 23:52

Sid Guttridge wrote:
06 Dec 2020 08:02
Han Chinese in Tibet, Sinkiang, etc., etc.?

French in New Caledonia?

Both are ongoing.

Argentines in Patagonia? It was their version of the US's "Manifest Destiny".

If the US Manifest Destiny is included, then the contemporary colonization of Canada, Australia, New Zealand, South Africa, Southern Rhodesia, Kenya and the Falkland Islands must be, as well.

The French effort in North Africa was considerable. I think there were around a million Pieds Noires.

What about the Russian settlement of Siberia, most of which was contemporaneous with US Manifest Destiny and met it in Alaska?

Most of Brazil's interior was also settled by outsiders during the same time frame.

I suppose the Irish diaspora is largely a subset of British colonialism and US Manifest Destiny.

Cheers,

Sid.
Tibet is still over 90% ethnic Tibetan, I believe, but Yes, the Sinicization (or re-Sinicization) of Xinjiang since 1953 was pretty ambitious.

New Caledonia is pretty small, no?

Patagonia was a bit larger, of course.

Agreed that Canada, Australia, New Zealand, et cetera should be included here.

As for North Africa, Yep, though most of the settlers were not French but rather Italian, Spanish, and Maltese, to my knowledge.

Russian settlement of Siberia and Central Asia could also work for this.

I don't know the scale of the settlement of the Brazilian interior.

The Irish diaspora didn't really involve a conscious plan to colonize on the part of the Irish; rather, it was more about the Irish fleeing famine, economic hardship, and/or British oppression.

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Re: Most ambitious settler colonialist plans in modern/recent history?

Post by Steve » 07 Dec 2020 21:30

The dictionary definition of colonialism is “the action or process of settling among and establishing control over the indigenous people of an area”. Some of the examples given do not come under this definition.

I doubt that Zionists wanted to establish a Jewish state with a large or majority Arab population that they would settle amongst and control. They wanted a Jewish state.

The territories east of the Oder Neisse clearly do not come under the dictionary definition.

What happened in North America is often referred to as colonialism but I have reservations about whether this term is the correct one. It should be remembered that in many areas the bulk of the indigenous population maybe as high as over 90% was dead due to European disease before the settlers arrived. The land was largely empty. Algeria is a fine example of colonialism and the experience of the remaining small numbers of Indians is not really comparable to the Arabs in Algeria. Perhaps not always deliberately, but American behaviour towards the native population that came under their control often smacks of genocide.

The Falklands were not colonised a colony was established there.

Brazil’s native population seems to have gone through and in some areas is still going though what happened in America. As in America slaves from Africa were brought in to work on plantations because the native population was dead hence could not be controlled for the benefit of colonisers. There were hardly any natives to settle amongst after they came into contact with Europeans.

England has an interesting colonial history in the British Isles. Ireland can certainly be included in the category of a colonised country as the country was conquered and the Catholic land owning class largely dispossessed. Mainly in the north the indigenous population of some areas was replaced by settlers from England and Scotland. Going back further in time Wales was also a colonised country with laws aimed at the locals that in comparison give the British colonies in Africa the appearance of holiday resorts

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Re: Most ambitious settler colonialist plans in modern/recent history?

Post by Sid Guttridge » 08 Dec 2020 01:04

Hi Steve,

In writing, "I doubt that Zionists wanted to establish a Jewish state with a large or majority Arab population that they would settle amongst and control. They wanted a Jewish state.", you make it sound worse than colonization - ethnic cleansing, in fact. Still, even though over half of the world's Jews have moved to Israel since 1948 and no Palestinians have been allowed to return to their homes, the proportion of Israel's population that is Arab has remained pretty constant at around 20%, because natural growth of the Israeli Palestinian population has been significantly faster than that of most Israeli Jewish communities. Given that there are not too many Jews left elsewhere who seem to want to move to Israel at present, it seems quite possible that the proportion of Israel's population who are Arab is likely to increase in the coming decades. This would present Israel with some interesting choices!

Cheers,

Sid.

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Re: Most ambitious settler colonialist plans in modern/recent history?

Post by wm » 08 Dec 2020 03:08

51UYLvX+g6L._SX336_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg

The most ambitious settler colonialist plans in modern history was the Japanese conquest of China.
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Re: Most ambitious settler colonialist plans in modern/recent history?

Post by Futurist » 08 Dec 2020 04:38

Steve wrote:
07 Dec 2020 21:30
The dictionary definition of colonialism is “the action or process of settling among and establishing control over the indigenous people of an area”. Some of the examples given do not come under this definition.

I doubt that Zionists wanted to establish a Jewish state with a large or majority Arab population that they would settle amongst and control. They wanted a Jewish state.

The territories east of the Oder Neisse clearly do not come under the dictionary definition.

What happened in North America is often referred to as colonialism but I have reservations about whether this term is the correct one. It should be remembered that in many areas the bulk of the indigenous population maybe as high as over 90% was dead due to European disease before the settlers arrived. The land was largely empty. Algeria is a fine example of colonialism and the experience of the remaining small numbers of Indians is not really comparable to the Arabs in Algeria. Perhaps not always deliberately, but American behaviour towards the native population that came under their control often smacks of genocide.

The Falklands were not colonised a colony was established there.

Brazil’s native population seems to have gone through and in some areas is still going though what happened in America. As in America slaves from Africa were brought in to work on plantations because the native population was dead hence could not be controlled for the benefit of colonisers. There were hardly any natives to settle amongst after they came into contact with Europeans.

England has an interesting colonial history in the British Isles. Ireland can certainly be included in the category of a colonised country as the country was conquered and the Catholic land owning class largely dispossessed. Mainly in the north the indigenous population of some areas was replaced by settlers from England and Scotland. Going back further in time Wales was also a colonised country with laws aimed at the locals that in comparison give the British colonies in Africa the appearance of holiday resorts
Does colonialism absolutely have to result in the establishment of control over a particular population? Or could it also apply to settling unpopulated lands, such as Antarctica or outer space (in the future)?

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Re: Most ambitious settler colonialist plans in modern/recent history?

Post by Futurist » 08 Dec 2020 04:41

Sid Guttridge wrote:
08 Dec 2020 01:04
Hi Steve,

In writing, "I doubt that Zionists wanted to establish a Jewish state with a large or majority Arab population that they would settle amongst and control. They wanted a Jewish state.", you make it sound worse than colonization - ethnic cleansing, in fact. Still, even though over half of the world's Jews have moved to Israel since 1948 and no Palestinians have been allowed to return to their homes, the proportion of Israel's population that is Arab has remained pretty constant at around 20%, because natural growth of the Israeli Palestinian population has been significantly faster than that of most Israeli Jewish communities. Given that there are not too many Jews left elsewhere who seem to want to move to Israel at present, it seems quite possible that the proportion of Israel's population who are Arab is likely to increase in the coming decades. This would present Israel with some interesting choices!

Cheers,

Sid.
Israel's Jewish total fertility rate has actually converged with Israel's Arab total fertility rate in recent years and decades:

https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/.pr ... -1.8343039

(You can access this article in full through the Internet Archive's Wayback Machine.)

Anyway, though, there's an easy way to make more Jews: Promote mass conversions to Judaism in poor and destitute parts of the world. I could certainly see up to a couple million people in the developing world (excluding Muslims, of course) actually agreeing to do this as the price of escaping poverty, misery, and/or oppression in their home countries.

There is, of course, also the option of having open borders with Russia (and Belarus) and encouraging new non-Jewish immigrants from Russia (and Belarus) to intermarry with the existing Russian-Jewish population--and of course to adopt patrilineal/bilineal descent in regards to determining Jewish status, as should be done if one claims to oppose sexism and to believe that halakha can change!

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Re: Most ambitious settler colonialist plans in modern/recent history?

Post by Futurist » 08 Dec 2020 04:42

wm wrote:
08 Dec 2020 03:08
51UYLvX+g6L._SX336_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg

The most ambitious settler colonialist plans in modern history was the Japanese conquest of China.
Just how many Japanese did Japan actually envision settling in China, though? Also, what about Koreans and Taiwanese?

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Re: Most ambitious settler colonialist plans in modern/recent history?

Post by Futurist » 08 Dec 2020 04:45

@Steve: By the way, the Recovered Territories actually did include a pre-existing population in some parts of it--specifically the autochthons, whom Poland highly prized and wanted to keep due to them "proving" the ancient Polishness of the Recovered Territories:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recovered ... 950_census
Origin of settlers and the number of autochthons in the Recovered Territories in 1950 (county data grouped based on pre-1939 administrative borders)[59]
Region (within 1939 borders): West Upper Silesia Lower Silesia East Brandenburg West Pomerania Free City Danzig South East Prussia Total
Autochthons (1939 DE/FCD citizens) 789,716 120,885 14,809 70,209 35,311 134,702 1,165,632

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Re: Most ambitious settler colonialist plans in modern/recent history?

Post by Sid Guttridge » 08 Dec 2020 04:58

Hi Futurist,

You post, "Israel's Jewish total fertility rate has actually converged with Israel's Arab total fertility rate in recent years and decades:" I know. That is why I phrased it cautiously. As things stand, Israeli Arab fertility is still higher that Jewish Israeli fertility.

You post, "Anyway, though, there's an easy way to make more Jews: Promote mass conversions to Judaism in poor and destitute parts of the world. I could certainly see up to a couple million people in the developing world (excluding Muslims, of course) actually agreeing to do this as the price of escaping poverty, misery, and/or oppression in their home countries." Jewishness and Israeli citizenship isn't acquired quite so easily!

You post, "There is, of course, also the option of having open borders with Russia (and Belarus) and encouraging new non-Jewish immigrants from Russia (and Belarus) to intermarry with the existing Russian-Jewish population--and of course to adopt patrilineal/bilineal descent in regards to determining Jewish status, as should be done if one claims to oppose sexism and to believe that halakha can change!" The peak of immigration from these sources is over. Besides, when it was at its peak it imported some unexpected problems - such as Neo-Nazism, of all things!

Cheers,

Sid.

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Re: Most ambitious settler colonialist plans in modern/recent history?

Post by Futurist » 08 Dec 2020 05:40

Sid Guttridge wrote:
08 Dec 2020 04:58
Hi Futurist,

You post, "Israel's Jewish total fertility rate has actually converged with Israel's Arab total fertility rate in recent years and decades:" I know. That is why I phrased it cautiously. As things stand, Israeli Arab fertility is still higher that Jewish Israeli fertility.

You post, "Anyway, though, there's an easy way to make more Jews: Promote mass conversions to Judaism in poor and destitute parts of the world. I could certainly see up to a couple million people in the developing world (excluding Muslims, of course) actually agreeing to do this as the price of escaping poverty, misery, and/or oppression in their home countries." Jewishness and Israeli citizenship isn't acquired quite so easily!
Judaism should make its doors more open to converts, in my honest opinion. This Jewish professor also argues the same thing:

https://jewishjournal.com/commentary/op ... -refugees/

Interestingly enough, seeing more Jews push for massive demographic change in Israel might also have the positive effect of reducing alt-right anti-Semitism--at least by a little bit.
You post, "There is, of course, also the option of having open borders with Russia (and Belarus) and encouraging new non-Jewish immigrants from Russia (and Belarus) to intermarry with the existing Russian-Jewish population--and of course to adopt patrilineal/bilineal descent in regards to determining Jewish status, as should be done if one claims to oppose sexism and to believe that halakha can change!" The peak of immigration from these sources is over. Besides, when it was at its peak it imported some unexpected problems - such as Neo-Nazism, of all things!

Cheers,

Sid.
Sure, the peak of immigration from there is over, but more people from there (especially non-Jews) could immigrate to Israel if they're actually allowed to do this. As for Neo-Nazism, that was a fringe movement and might have at least in part been caused by the alienation of patrilineal Jews in Israeli society! After all, no Israeli Jewish movement--not even the liberal ones--actually accepts patrilineal Jews as the are! :( (Here in the US, both Reform and Reconstructionist Judaism at least do in fact have the decency to actually do this. :) US Conservative Judaism, of course, is still holding out, bizarrely believing that halakha can evolve and change on EVERY SINGLE ISSUE if necessary other than on both patrilineal/bilineal descent and intermarriage! :( Yep, literally everything other than these two things are open for renegotiation according to the US Conservative Jewish movement! :()

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Re: Most ambitious settler colonialist plans in modern/recent history?

Post by Steve » 08 Dec 2020 14:34

Futurist,
True, groups closely related to Poles such as Kashubians were allowed to stay. If you could prove Polish ancestry and this proof could consist of a language test or maybe a pre war subscription to a Polish language newspaper you were also allowed to stay. Can’t remember the numbers off hand but Ukrainians from Galicia were forcibly resettled in the former German territories. The communists did not run the newly acquired territory as a colonial enterprise it became part of Poland. Some Germans were allowed to stay if they were essential workers, not sure what their status was.

Israel defines itself as a Jewish state and a nation state of the Jewish people. Netanyahu who has won several democratic elections has said that Israel is “The nation-state of the Jewish people, and the Jewish people alone". Where are the borders of this state? A look at a current map will tell you where the borders are and where for the foreseeable future they will remain. How could such a relatively small state survive a mass influx of “a couple of million” poverty stricken people who claim to have converted to Judaism? Clearly the present Jewish character of Israel would be much diluted. More territory would have to be taken from the Palestinians to settle these people and quite likely the only solution would be a mass expulsion of Palestinians. If the Jewish population continues to grow where are they going to go apart from the West Bank?

If I am not mistaken the only parts of China that saw large scale Japanese colonial settlement were Manchuria and maybe Taiwan.

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Re: Most ambitious settler colonialist plans in modern/recent history?

Post by Futurist » 08 Dec 2020 23:47

Steve wrote:
08 Dec 2020 14:34
Futurist,
True, groups closely related to Poles such as Kashubians were allowed to stay. If you could prove Polish ancestry and this proof could consist of a language test or maybe a pre war subscription to a Polish language newspaper you were also allowed to stay. Can’t remember the numbers off hand but Ukrainians from Galicia were forcibly resettled in the former German territories. The communists did not run the newly acquired territory as a colonial enterprise it became part of Poland. Some Germans were allowed to stay if they were essential workers, not sure what their status was.
"A pre war subscription of a Polish language newspaper"! :D ;)

Anyway, Yeah, the post-WWII Polish government did in fact deport some Ukrainians to the Recovered Territories:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lemkos#/m ... d_2002.PNG

Image

And Yes, Polish groups such as the Kashubians, Silesians, et cetera--those who lived in the Recovered Territories pre-1939--were allowed to stay.

Also, can expansion of the motherland not be viewed as a colonial enterprise? Or can it only be viewed as a colonial enterprise if it actually involves having some other, different peoples to rule over?
Israel defines itself as a Jewish state and a nation state of the Jewish people. Netanyahu who has won several democratic elections has said that Israel is “The nation-state of the Jewish people, and the Jewish people alone". Where are the borders of this state? A look at a current map will tell you where the borders are and where for the foreseeable future they will remain. How could such a relatively small state survive a mass influx of “a couple of million” poverty stricken people who claim to have converted to Judaism? Clearly the present Jewish character of Israel would be much diluted. More territory would have to be taken from the Palestinians to settle these people and quite likely the only solution would be a mass expulsion of Palestinians. If the Jewish population continues to grow where are they going to go apart from the West Bank?
Israel could settle these people in the Negev and the Galilee, where there is still plenty of space even right now.
If I am not mistaken the only parts of China that saw large scale Japanese colonial settlement were Manchuria and maybe Taiwan.
Yep, that makes sense.

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Re: Most ambitious settler colonialist plans in modern/recent history?

Post by Steve » 09 Dec 2020 13:40

“Israel could settle these people in the Negev and the Galilee, where there is still plenty of space even right now”.

It would seem that about half of Galilee’s population is Arab and therefore any further large scale settlement of Jews in Galilee must surely be dependent on obtaining land from the the Arabs. If the Negev is suitable for large scale Jewish settlement, why have 463,353 Jews settled in the West Bank (as of Jan 1 2019 source Jewish News) since 1967 and not been directed to the Negev?

“Also, can expansion of the motherland not be viewed as a colonial enterprise? Or can it only be viewed as a colonial enterprise if it actually involves having some other, different peoples to rule over?”

If the land is empty you are not colonising anyone you are merely setting up a colony. Assuming of course no one owns the land. Does what is happening in the West Bank come under the definition of colonising or colony?

Is it just me having to click on pictures of cars and fire hydrants etc. before I can log on?

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