Most ambitious settler colonialist plans in modern/recent history?

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Sid Guttridge
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Re: Most ambitious settler colonialist plans in modern/recent history?

Post by Sid Guttridge » 09 Dec 2020 18:53

Hi Steve,

No, it is not just you. It is irritating the hell out of me, too.

In solidarity,

Sid.

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Re: Most ambitious settler colonialist plans in modern/recent history?

Post by Futurist » 10 Dec 2020 00:10

Sid Guttridge wrote:
09 Dec 2020 18:53
Hi Steve,

No, it is not just you. It is irritating the hell out of me, too.

In solidarity,

Sid.
Just never log out of this forum. There--problem solved! :)

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Re: Most ambitious settler colonialist plans in modern/recent history?

Post by Futurist » 10 Dec 2020 00:13

Steve wrote:
09 Dec 2020 13:40
“Israel could settle these people in the Negev and the Galilee, where there is still plenty of space even right now”.

It would seem that about half of Galilee’s population is Arab and therefore any further large scale settlement of Jews in Galilee must surely be dependent on obtaining land from the the Arabs. If the Negev is suitable for large scale Jewish settlement, why have 463,353 Jews settled in the West Bank (as of Jan 1 2019 source Jewish News) since 1967 and not been directed to the Negev?
I don't know what percentage of the remaining land in the Galilee is owned by Arabs versus Jews and the Israeli state. I can try finding out, though. As for having Israelis settle in the West Bank, that might have in part been a political decision (because a lot of Jews view the West Bank as holy) and in part a practical decision--a lot of the West Bank settlements are in or near the Jerusalem area, for instance, and it's much more convenient to live in the Jerusalem area if one works in Jerusalem as opposed to working in Jerusalem and living in the Negev or the Galilee.
“Also, can expansion of the motherland not be viewed as a colonial enterprise? Or can it only be viewed as a colonial enterprise if it actually involves having some other, different peoples to rule over?”

If the land is empty you are not colonising anyone you are merely setting up a colony. Assuming of course no one owns the land. Does what is happening in the West Bank come under the definition of colonising or colony?
Does colonizing necessarily having to involve people or can it simply involve land without people, though?
Is it just me having to click on pictures of cars and fire hydrants etc. before I can log on?
I might have previously had that problem, but I easily solved it by refusing to ever log off from this forum. :)

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Steve
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Re: Most ambitious settler colonialist plans in modern/recent history?

Post by Steve » 10 Dec 2020 13:12

“Does colonizing necessarily having to involve people or can it simply involve land without people, though?”

The word colonizing means that you have settled among an indigenous people and established control over them. For example Europeans colonized South Africa. Checked the dictionary for colony and the definition is a group of people who create a settlement in a distant land but remain under the control of their native country. No mention of controlling the native population or settling among them so presumably if you establish a colony at the South Pole that would not be colonization. However, if the establishment of the colony involved seizing land from a powerless native population then surely control has been established over them. Even if you do not live among them but live in a fort on a hill and use a helicopter to come and go you have moved from colony to colonization, in my opinion.

From what you say Futurist it seems that you are now logging in without going through the robot check, I went through a parking meter check this time. All the pictures of whatever seem to be from the USA, very odd.

Sid Guttridge
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Re: Most ambitious settler colonialist plans in modern/recent history?

Post by Sid Guttridge » 10 Dec 2020 13:44

Hi Steve,

So presumably we can't colonize the Moon, or Mars?

Colonizing space will have to wait until after first contact?

Has anyone told the Chinese, or Elon Musk?

Cheers,

Sid.

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Re: Most ambitious settler colonialist plans in modern/recent history?

Post by Futurist » 11 Dec 2020 00:24

Steve wrote:
10 Dec 2020 13:12
From what you say Futurist it seems that you are now logging in without going through the robot check, I went through a parking meter check this time. All the pictures of whatever seem to be from the USA, very odd.
Not quite; what I'm saying is that I simply refuse to log off at all, thus sparing me the problem of having to deal with any subsequent attempts to log in. :)

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Re: Most ambitious settler colonialist plans in modern/recent history?

Post by Steve » 11 Dec 2020 01:48

Hi Sid, as I said previously “If the land is empty you are not colonising anyone” and presumably the moon is uninhabited. According to the dictionary colonise can mean “send settlers to a place and establish political control over it” which if we are discussing the moon is the definition of colonise I would use. As long as Elon Musk checks that the planets he lands on are uninhabited he can colonise to his hearts content. However, if little green men are discovered on a planet then he can’t colonise it unless the little green men give their permission.

Can a coloniser be a bringer of civilisation to people living in darkness or is he/was he always bad?

Futurist, I clear my computer regularly of trackers etc and that presumably is why your method does not work for me. Interesting log on this time, was asked to select all squares with bicycles in them but there were no squares with bicycles in them. There were squares with motor scooters in them, I think I failed.

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Re: Most ambitious settler colonialist plans in modern/recent history?

Post by Futurist » 21 Dec 2020 04:18

Steve wrote:
11 Dec 2020 01:48
Can a coloniser be a bringer of civilisation to people living in darkness or is he/was he always bad?
Yep, sometimes colonialism can be for the better though there are serious issues with colonialism as a permanent solution due to the democratic deficit than it involves--unless of course one grants full citizenship and legal equality to one's colonized subjects, of course.
Futurist, I clear my computer regularly of trackers etc and that presumably is why your method does not work for me. Interesting log on this time, was asked to select all squares with bicycles in them but there were no squares with bicycles in them. There were squares with motor scooters in them, I think I failed.
Interesting. Did you succeed a second time?

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Re: Most ambitious settler colonialist plans in modern/recent history?

Post by Futurist » 11 Jan 2021 22:53

@wm: Do you think that, had France (purely hypothetically) acquired and annexed the Rhineland after the end of World War II and expelled all of the Germans living there, the subsequent French colonization efforts in the Rhineland would have been anywhere near as successful as the Polish colonization efforts in the Recovered Territories?

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wm
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Re: Most ambitious settler colonialist plans in modern/recent history?

Post by wm » 12 Jan 2021 10:00

An empty territory, with all the infrastructure in place, is easy to colonize.

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Re: Most ambitious settler colonialist plans in modern/recent history?

Post by Sid Guttridge » 12 Jan 2021 14:44

Hi wm,

When has there ever been "An empty territory, with all the infrastructure in place"?

Who put the infrastructure there, if it's empty?

A mystified Sid.

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Re: Most ambitious settler colonialist plans in modern/recent history?

Post by Loïc » 12 Jan 2021 19:04

the only country planning larges annexations in western Germany were the Netherlands enlarging its area until 50%
other mystery for me about a such undeclared what-if is why France would expell all the Germans in these territories...as if it occured such will or policy under the Revolution-Napoleonic period or 1918-1930 occupation?
France was totaly unable to send enough settlers Overseas throughout its colonial History from 16th to 19th century until lose North America for such main reason precisely for lack of taste of emigration from the French people unlike Spanish Portuguese British Germans Belgians Italians Scandinavians Poles and the rest of Europe but no matter, there would be waves of French settlers in the new departements of Mont Tonnerre, la Roër and Rhin-et-Moselle, but seriously

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Re: Most ambitious settler colonialist plans in modern/recent history?

Post by Futurist » 23 Jan 2021 03:06

Loïc wrote:
12 Jan 2021 19:04
the only country planning larges annexations in western Germany were the Netherlands enlarging its area until 50%
other mystery for me about a such undeclared what-if is why France would expell all the Germans in these territories...as if it occured such will or policy under the Revolution-Napoleonic period or 1918-1930 occupation?
The political circumstances were different back then. After WWI, the Anglo-Americans were certainly NOT going to tolerate mass expulsions and back in Napoleonic times there was still the hope of turning the Rhineland Germans into Alsatians, as might have very well eventually occurred had France actually won the Napoleonic Wars.
France was totaly unable to send enough settlers Overseas throughout its colonial History from 16th to 19th century until lose North America for such main reason precisely for lack of taste of emigration from the French people unlike Spanish Portuguese British Germans Belgians Italians Scandinavians Poles and the rest of Europe but no matter, there would be waves of French settlers in the new departements of Mont Tonnerre, la Roër and Rhin-et-Moselle, but seriously
Well, I was simply thinking of these territories being much closer to home for France--indeed, much closer to the French metropole, so to speak--and also the fact that France actually did have a baby boom in the post-WWII decades. Also, France actually was able to send sizable numbers of its people to settle in both Quebec and New Orleans, no?

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Re: Most ambitious settler colonialist plans in modern/recent history?

Post by Futurist » 23 Jan 2021 03:07

Sid Guttridge wrote:
12 Jan 2021 14:44
Hi wm,

When has there ever been "An empty territory, with all the infrastructure in place"?

Who put the infrastructure there, if it's empty?

A mystified Sid.
The expelled population, before they actually got expelled?

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Re: Most ambitious settler colonialist plans in modern/recent history?

Post by Futurist » 23 Jan 2021 03:07

wm wrote:
12 Jan 2021 10:00
An empty territory, with all the infrastructure in place, is easy to colonize.
But do you think that France's demographic situation in the post-World War II decades was as favorable towards settler colonialism as Poland's and Czechoslovakia's post-World War II demographic situations were?

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