Ideologies comparable to Lebensraum?

[Futurist]

Hi wm,

I have certainly seen it suggested that Nazi policy in Latin America amongst the million or more Germans there was to prevent their miscegenation until they could be repatriated. So it is entirely plausible that they intended to repatriate the descendants of the 8 million German immigrants to the USA over 1840-1939, who today number some 45 million.

The problem with this is that most had made a nice life for themselves and probably wouldn't want to be repatriated. Not only were American Germans highly represented in the US armed forces fighting against Nazi Germany, but they were even heavily over represented amongst the pilots of the Brazilian fighter/bomber group sent to the Italian front.

Cheers,

Sid.

Yeah, good luck getting German-Americans the likes of Doris Day repatriated back to Germany! It just won't happen--EVER!

[Futurist]

Hitler's idea about the importance of Europe to his ultimate goals was expressed most clearly in the weeks of September and October 1941.
"The struggle for global hegemony will be decided in Europe's favor by the possession of the Russian space," he predicted. "In this way, Europe will become an impenetrable fortress, secure against every threat of a blockade. All of this will open up economic perspectives that, one can assume, will orient the most liberal Western democracies towards the new order of things."

By reversing the status quo, Hitler intended to make the old world into the new world.
"Europe will gain importance in itself. Then Europe and not America will be the land of unlimited opportunities. If the Americans are clever, they will understand that it is in their own interest to participate in this work."
A large-scale return of emigrants from the former "New World" would, in Hitler's opinion, correct the flawed European development that had taken place since the Thirty Years War. This would hasten the shift of power by, on the one hand, weakening America's economic potential and on the other, strengthening Europe. There would be a huge area for activity and pioneer tasks in the new and greater Europe.

If Germany were to offer American engineers big projects, for example, Hitler assumed that they would come, since two-thirds of them were of German stock anyway. According to Hitler, America would have no chance in the face of the new hegemonic power that would hold "the dominant position in the world."

130 million Americans would face 130 million in Germany, and 90 million in the Ukraine, as well as the countries of the new Europe: together a population of 400 million.
Hitler's Plans for Global Domination: Nazi Architecture and Ultimate War Aims by Jochen Thies

90 million in Ukraine consisting of whom, exactly? Just how many locals out of that 90 million?

[wm]

I think it's a misprint, it should be 60 million. It really doesn't matter.

The ultimate goal was global hegemony, the colony at the Black Sea was just the icing on the cake.
The colony was doable it didn't matter if after 20 years its population would be 10 or 90 million.
With a good propaganda effort, large land and building materials grants, minimal bureaucracy (Hitler promised that!), it was possible to attract a few million wannabe colonizers from all around the world.

After all, this version of Lebensraum was a reasonably limited goal.
Russia was going to be Hitler's India, the colony his White Highlands of Kenya.

[Sid Guttridge]

Hi Futurist,

American-born Doris Day (née Kappelhoff)?

Heck, they couldn't even get German-born Germans like Marlene Dietrich to go back.

Cheers,

Sid.

[Futurist]

I think it's a misprint, it should be 60 million. It really doesn't matter.

The ultimate goal was global hegemony, the colony at the Black Sea was just the icing on the cake.
The colony was doable it didn't matter if after 20 years its population would be 10 or 90 million.
With a good propaganda effort, large land and building materials grants, minimal bureaucracy (Hitler promised that!), it was possible to attract a few million wannabe colonizers from all around the world.

After all, this version of Lebensraum was a reasonably limited goal.
Russia was going to be Hitler's India, the colony his White Highlands of Kenya.

Were the colonies going to be focused primarily on and around the Black Sea coast?

[Futurist]

Hi Futurist,

American-born Doris Day (née Kappelhoff)?

Yep, her--specifically America's Sweetheart.

Heck, they couldn't even get German-born Germans like Marlene Dietrich to go back.

Cheers,

Sid.

Or Fritz Lang?

[wm]

He said Southern Ukraine.

southern ukraine.png (61 KiB) Viewed 438 times

[ljadw]

I think it's a misprint, it should be 60 million. It really doesn't matter.

The ultimate goal was global hegemony, the colony at the Black Sea was just the icing on the cake.
The colony was doable it didn't matter if after 20 years its population would be 10 or 90 million.
With a good propaganda effort, large land and building materials grants, minimal bureaucracy (Hitler promised that!), it was possible to attract a few million wannabe colonizers from all around the world.

After all, this version of Lebensraum was a reasonably limited goal.
Russia was going to be Hitler's India, the colony his White Highlands of Kenya.

And what would these wannabe colonizers do for a living ?

[Sid Guttridge]

Hi ljadw,

Well, the 8 million German immigrants to the USA must have found something to do to occupy their time, because today they have left almost the same number of descendants (about 45 million) as the entire current population of Ukraine. And they were in competition with many more millions of other European immigrants. All that is required is enough time.

Cheers,

Sid.

[ljadw]

Hi ljadw,

Well, the 8 million German immigrants to the USA must have found something to do to occupy their time, because today they have left almost the same number of descendants (about 45 million) as the entire current population of Ukraine. And they were in competition with many more millions of other European immigrants. All that is required is enough time.

Cheers,

Sid.

Apples with oranges . Bad oranges .
''All that is required is enough time '' : totally wrong .
First requirement is to know what to do with the indigenous ones : there were only a few of them in the US, there were 30 million of them in the Ukraine .
You can't kill 30 million Ukrainians.
You can't expel 30 million Ukrainians .
Without the Ukrainians the Colonization is doomed to fail .
With the Ukrainians,the Colonization is also doomed to fail .
The 8 million ''Germans '' went to North America because they were persecuted in Germany, because of the poverty in Germany AND because BEFORE their arrival there were already millions of white Europeans in NA who had made the colonization a success .
The Nazi regime could only survive after a successful war IF there was prosperity in Germany .
And if there was prosperity in Germany, no German would leave his home to live somewhere in the middle of nowhere.
Prosperity in the Alt Reich means no colonization (prosperity in Ireland in 1845 means no emigration )
Colonization of the Ukraine would destroy prosperity in Germany .
After a successful war prosperity in Germany would depend on international trade (as it is today ) , NOT on a continental empire : Germany was not overpopulated in 1941 and if millions of Germans would leave Germany, the results for the German economy and agriculture would be catastrophic : the German farmers would lose millions of clients and would be broken .
During WWII ( with millions of farmers mobilized ) the German farmers produced enough to feed the population .After the war they could produce more, but this was depending on more buyers .
Hitler's theory of a continental empire arized in the thirties when international trade collapsed . After the war international trade would flourish again and there would be no need for a colonial empire .
Britain is today better off without colonies . Colonies costs and do not yield .

[Sid Guttridge]

Hi ljadw,

You post, "You can't kill 30 million Ukrainians."

Really?

It may have escaped your notice, but some 8,400,000 Ukrainians died in just four years of WWII. That is about 20% of the population. Of these, some 7,000,000 were civilians who died under German occupation.

Earlier, under Stalin in 1932-33, 6-7 million Ukrainians are thought to have died in the "Holodomor".

Killing Ukrainians by the tens of millions was not an insurmountable obstacle to the Nazis, or the Communists.

Between them they appear to have been responsible for the deaths of half your 30 million in just five years!

Cheers,

Sid.

[ljadw]

Hi ljadw,

You post, "You can't kill 30 million Ukrainians."

Really?

It may have escaped your notice, but some 8,400,000 Ukrainians died in just four years of WWII. That is about 20% of the population. Of these, some 7,000,000 were civilians who died under German occupation.

Earlier, under Stalin in 1932-33, 6-7 million Ukrainians are thought to have died in the "Holodomor".

Killing Ukrainians by the tens of millions was not an insurmountable obstacle to the Nazis, or the Communists.

Between them they appear to have been responsible for the deaths of half your 30 million in just five years!

Cheers,

Sid.

There were no 6/7 million Ukrainian deaths in the Holodomor (there were 2 million deaths in 1933 ,and these were not killed by Stalin .) .8,4 million victims in WWII is an unproved claim : after 1939 the next census in the USSR was in 1959, thus no one could know the population of Ukraine in 1946 .

[Sid Guttridge]

Hi ljadw,

You can quibble about how many million, (your 2 million estimate is easily the lowest I have seen), but the fact remains that even by your figure Soviet policy killed millions of Ukrainians in a singe year. Just 15 years of that equals your 30 million.

As it was, Ukraine seems to have had an absolute minimum of four years between 1932 and 1944 in which an average of some 2 million of its people died. Other estimates are higher.

However you slice it, your proposition that "You can't kill 30 million Ukrainians." is demonstrably untrue.

Given enough time, malice or malign neglect, killing 30 million Ukrainians was demonstrably doable.

Mao showed that over 1958 to 1962 when anything between 15 and 55 million people died.

What is more shocking is that that the primary focus of the Germans over 1941-44 wasn't on killing Ukrainians. This was incidental. In the Soviet and Chinese cases it seems to have been down to disastrous policy decisions that induced famine.

How much worse might it be if genocide was the main intent, rather than just a by-product?

Cheers,

Sid.

[Futurist]

To be fair, though, Mao also had a much larger population to work with.

[Sid Guttridge]

Hi Futurist,

I am not sure why that matters. The fact that Mao's policies killed "only" between 1.5% and 5% of his population in five years doesn't lower the scale of what happened by a single body. Deaths still ran into the tens of millions.

The thing to take away is that Mao's policies resulted in the deaths of 15-55 million people without him even trying to achieve that result and that he inflicted this on his own people.

One cannot help but feel that someone wanting to kill millions of helpless people who were aliens would be rather more focused and effective.

Cheers,

Sid.