Most ambitious wars of conquest throughout history?

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Futurist
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Re: Most ambitious wars of conquest throughout history?

#16

Post by Futurist » 25 Jan 2021, 01:31

Steve wrote:
24 Jan 2021, 20:22
If Khrushchev had decided in 1954 not to transfer the Crimea from the Russian Soviet Socialist Republic to the Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic there would now be no issue with the Crimea. Of course It depends on who does the illegal takeover or breakaway as to whether a blind eye is turned on the matter or not.
Do you mean that the West is more tolerant of ill-gotten territorial gains when its own allies do the conquering? Indonesia and East Timor, perhaps? Or Morocco and Western Sahara?

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Steve
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Re: Most ambitious wars of conquest throughout history?

#17

Post by Steve » 25 Jan 2021, 22:49

Quite likely if an opportunity arose as it did with the Crimea Putin would seize the opportunity but he cannot challenge NATO directly. The 2008 NATO summit may have been a watershed moment. At the summit it was proposed that the Ukraine and Georgia be admitted to NATO. The admittance of Ukraine would have placed Russia’s main naval base in the Black sea in a NATO country and brought NATO forces to within a six hour drive of Volgograd (Stalingrad). It took the German army about 14 months to get that near. The admittance of Georgia would have opened up a new front in the Caucasus area for Russia to worry about.

I am not aware of any sanctions imposed on Turkey for its seizure of northern Cyprus, Morocco for its annexation of the western Sahara and Israel for its de facto annexation of the west bank and it’s annexation of the Golan heights. Is the military support given to the breakaway Chinese province of Taiwan by a foreign power comparable to the military support given to the breakaway parts of eastern Ukraine by a foreign power?


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Re: Most ambitious wars of conquest throughout history?

#18

Post by Futurist » 25 Jan 2021, 23:15

Steve wrote:
25 Jan 2021, 22:49
Quite likely if an opportunity arose as it did with the Crimea Putin would seize the opportunity but he cannot challenge NATO directly. The 2008 NATO summit may have been a watershed moment. At the summit it was proposed that the Ukraine and Georgia be admitted to NATO. The admittance of Ukraine would have placed Russia’s main naval base in the Black sea in a NATO country and brought NATO forces to within a six hour drive of Volgograd (Stalingrad). It took the German army about 14 months to get that near. The admittance of Georgia would have opened up a new front in the Caucasus area for Russia to worry about.
To be fair, though, Russia nowadays has A LOT OF nukes to deter the West, which it did NOT have back in 1941. Strategic depth matters much less when you have a lot of nukes.
I am not aware of any sanctions imposed on Turkey for its seizure of northern Cyprus, Morocco for its annexation of the western Sahara and Israel for its de facto annexation of the west bank and it’s annexation of the Golan heights. Is the military support given to the breakaway Chinese province of Taiwan by a foreign power comparable to the military support given to the breakaway parts of eastern Ukraine by a foreign power?
Yeah, I guess that the US's support for Taiwan is a bit comparable to Russia's support for the Donbass. It's also interesting that the people who were in charge of Taiwan during the Cold War were the former rulers of mainland China (specifically the KMT); similarly, the people of the Donbass (and Crimea) were some of ousted Ukrainian President Viktor Yanukovych's biggest supporters--which is completely unsurprising considering that he was a local boy!

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Re: Most ambitious wars of conquest throughout history?

#19

Post by Sid Guttridge » 26 Jan 2021, 13:15

Hi guys,

Taiwan is Nationalist China and predates Communist China, so the latter is technically the break-away.

There is an additional problem in that, apart from the Chinese, there is still a small native Taiwanese population that may not want to be part of either China. They are ancestral to most of the native populations of the Pacific Islands. The Chinese only arrived a few hundred years ago and were heavily reinforced by Nationalist Chinese refugees after the Chinese Civil War of the late 1940s.

Cheers,

Sid.

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Steve
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Re: Most ambitious wars of conquest throughout history?

#20

Post by Steve » 26 Jan 2021, 22:31

“Taiwan is Nationalist China and predates Communist China, so the latter is technically the break-away”

Interesting point and it may well have been correct. However, I would argue that after the communists became the internationally recognised government of China a process that was completed in 1971 at the UN the tables turned. The refusal of Taiwan to accept the authority of the legal Chinese government means that it is a breakaway province.

If I was a Taiwanese I wouldn’t want to join China. In a few years the Chinese fleet may well be strong enough to take on the US fleet in the "first island chain" and it will be interesting to see if they then decide to force the issue.

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Re: Most ambitious wars of conquest throughout history?

#21

Post by Sid Guttridge » 26 Jan 2021, 23:55

Hi Steve,

Fair point.

Sid.

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Re: Most ambitious wars of conquest throughout history?

#22

Post by Futurist » 27 Jan 2021, 06:59

Steve wrote:
26 Jan 2021, 22:31
If I was a Taiwanese I wouldn’t want to join China. In a few years the Chinese fleet may well be strong enough to take on the US fleet in the "first island chain" and it will be interesting to see if they then decide to force the issue.
You know what they say, Steve! Time moves slower in East Asia! ;) It took Vietnam 21 years to reunite after being divided, it could take China 100+ years to reunite after being divided, and who the Hell knows just how long it will take Korea to reunite after being divided!

Meanwhile, Germany's division lasted for 45 years--so, twice as long as Vietnam's division, but nowhere near as long as either China's division or Korea's division.

BTW, interestingly enough, the US itself played a huge role in ensuring that Korea, China, and Vietnam would actually remain divided for so long by being willing to use military force to protect the non-Communist parts of those countries from conquest by the Communist parts of those countries.

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